Little help please. I am not a very experienced rod builder. I have read a lot. I understand that the more experienced rod builders have come to the conclusion that orientating the guides on or opposite the spine on a blank is not important. Or, has no affect on the rods performance. But...a comment on another thread stated "guide position will determine whether a rod will twist or not" has raised a yellow flag in my head. Every time I think I understand.... I discover that I don't. It seems that I no longer understand everything I know. Comes with age I think.

How does guide "position" determine if a rod will twist or not.....if the spine has no affect? I was believing that the rod would not twist on any axis because the load would be on the guides, what ever axis you put them on. Therefore one could put the guides on any axis they choose to do so.

Sorry to beat that old horse to death..... more dead.......

Jim,
Generally speaking, you simply don't have to worry about rod twist. Under the majority of circumstances for the vast majority of rods and rod builds- twist simply doesn't happen.

Move on and enjoy the build of the rod.

Roger

I think the meaning of that is that its not important what axis but rather where at on the axis tu are working with. That's my understanding of it and it works for me.

Rufus
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Got it and thanks. Bottom line is it might affect looks....ie rod has a set and you do not take that into consideration in determining what axis you put the guides on. Example if rod has a turned up set, you could install guides on the opposite axis to help level out. But no matter which axis, won't affect the performance of the rod? I guess that is good enough for me.....if entirely true.

What will happen, if you build a casting rod in the conventional manner, all guides on top, when you put a load on the rod, it will want to spin on you. Thats why people use a sprial wrap for casting rods to make it stable under load. Even with using micro guides all on top, it will spin on you, but the force is not as great as if you were using a taller guide on top.

Jim,
Guides on top, and the rod will want to twist, under load, until the guides reach their lowest point. This happens with a conventional casting rod.
Guides on bottom are already located where they naturally want to go under load, such as in the case of a spinning rod or fly rod.
A spiral casting rod takes the line from the top of the rod, where the casting reel is located, and redirects it to the bottom of the rod, making the rod much more stable under load, than a conventional casting rod set-up.

George Forster
Fort Collins, CO

Jim,
There was one thing that was not covered. If you are building casting rods using the standard guides on top and reel on top, then the tip top will twist when the rod is under load with a large fish or when strongly flexed. If you use a spiral wrap, the twist disappears. Other than that all replies were fine. I should indicate that this is what I have learned from this web site, Rodmaker Magazine, and photographic evidence of tip top twisting.

Mike Blomme

Just how many times do you fight a fish head on and straight in line, Usually the fish will go from side to side, and I am sure you do not take the time to reposition yourself to make sure you are straight in line with the fish when reeling. I pull from side to side, straight and all different configurations when fighting a fish. This in turn renders the twist of a rod very negligable in my opinion,

Ron Weber

Absolutely wonderful help and information. Thank you all for the help. I tend to write what I am thinking about in my mind at the moment. I should have disclosed that I think only in terms of a "Fly" rod. I have no knowledge about building casting or spinning rods. I can see the difference. And I am very greatful for the simple explanations above. Very succinct and clear to me. I have heard of the New Guide Concept and the Spiral wrapping but never read up on them, because I am only interested in fly rods for myself. I do not build and sell to others. But it is a very interesting craft. I used to subscribe to Rodmaker magazine and wish I had never stopped. I just can't justify the expense living on a fixed income and only build rods to suit myself. That is one interesting and fine magazine. I have a lot of back issues.

Again thank you all for the information. I guess I should say icw fly rods.....it really doesn't matter which axis you put the guide system on.

Nice.


btw Roger....sorry, I know I contacted you about fixing a rod for me. Don't think you are worrying abou it all that much. But I hate to leave a fellow hanging. I plum forgot about sending the rod to you to fix. I have so many rods......I just set it aside and use others. I will send it one of these days.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2011 04:19PM by Jim Williams.

Because the guides on a fly rod are on the bottom of the rod, which is the general direction from which a fish is going to be pulling, you won't notice any appreciable rod twist. When guides are on top of a rod, however, the rod is going to try and turn to face the direction the load is coming from, which in most instances is going to be somewhere underneath the rod.

..............

So, when I load the rod for guide placement I need to make sure the handle is secure so it wont spin?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2011 08:19PM by scott stevens.

If the guides are on top, and you load the line, the rod is going to flip upside down, regardless of where you orient the spine.

.................

Ok so I'm mentally challenged, if the rod flips how can I determine where the guides go?

Lock the butt in place so it can't spin.

.............

Jim,
Check your shop.
I received the fly rod tip from you, repaired it and sent it back a couple of weeks ago.
Roger

Thanks Tom, thats what I was after.

The only rod that can be built that wants to twist - is a Conventional or Casting rod

Only because the guides are on top -- and want to go to the lowest position -- which is at the 180 or the bottom of the rod

Load a fly and a spinning rod and compare them to a casting rod with guides on top

Bill - willierods.com