Hey Guys.

I realise this question has probably been asked a million times. Tried a few searches with no luck.

Building a 80lb tuna stick with roller guides.
I would like to put one wrap of underlay and one wrap over the guides.

What thread sizes would you recommend for the underlay and overlay?

Thanks for your help.


Paul.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2011 10:32AM by Paul Hatfield.

A or B under and D over

Ken that was a quick reply :)

Thanks for your help.

paul.

Hi Paul,
I'd be putting two overwraps on an 80lb stick just in case. I use Madeira on my builds which is similar size to "A" thread and don't have any problems on rollered rods. A lot of guys will say to use D over A. D is thicker and therefore stronger but you get more wraps over a guide foot with thinner thread, so the choice is up to you. The smaller the thread the better look you'll get and the more work you got to do. You can also put a coat of finish on between the overbinds and that probably adds to the strength.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Col is right.

The total strength of a guide wrap is very similar, whether you use a, b, c or d sized thread.
The reason is as Col stated. One size is thicker, but you get fewer wraps. So, the actual strength is very similar no matter the thread being used.

Now, there is another issue when it comes to heavy boat rods, or rods that are going to be used for heavy fishing with much of the work being done on the rail.
That issue is durability. Generally speaking, thicker thread will be more durable than thinner thread.

So, again, one of the biggest reasons to use the D sized threads for over wraps is to get better wrap durability when the rod is constantly being dragged back and forth across the rail during the use by many folks on head boats and other types of heavy rail fishing.

Roger

Doing an overwrap of Size A thread over and underwrap of Size A thread is a royal pain -- it can be done, but the overwrap thread always seems to get caught in the thread grooves on the underwrap. Using D on the overwrap is so much easier, because you don't have this problem with two different-sized threads.

My rule of thumb is that if the rod is heavy enough to warrant the use of overwraps, the rod gets A underneath and D over top. If you think that size D thread is too heavy to use on an overwrap, then the rod doesn't need underwraps in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for all the comments guys.
I think I will go for D over A this time.

This is only me second rod and I guess if I dont like the look of the D over A I can always change it.

Once again thanks for the help.

Paul.

Col.

Do you put a layer of resin between the overlays?

If you want to make it easier to wrap over the base coat finish it up CP and Permagloss or LumiSeal will give a hard surface to wrap over

Bill - willierods.com

I hardly ever put any finish on an under wrap. The only time I do so is CP to preserve the color of lighter color threads (not white, yellow, pale blue - for those shades I use NCP thread). Some will opine that putting a layer of thread finish (PG, Lumaseal, epoxy) on the under wrap provides better adhesion of the under wrap to the blank and that may be true - although it sounds reasonable I have no idea if that is true. If the edges of the wraps are sealed to prevent water intrusion I think you'll be ok. Others will say that it makes the over wrap easier - that is true if you are using the same size (diameter) thread on the under and over wraps (A over A for example). The purpose of an under wrap is to protect the blank - which means that the guide foot might dig into the rod blank. A layer of thread is, IMO, added insurance ONLY if the guide has been properly prepped (no sharp points & edges) and the guide wrap (securing wrap) is sufficiently firm to hold the guide securely. That is the main reason that I do not like polyester thread with CP as a binding wrap. Poly and rayon have a tendency to "relax" when some CPs are applied - to me it's better to use nylon for guide bindings.

So then all rods should not have any clear on them and are better bare ??
When a rod is wrapped most have a clear

What is the difference between a cleared blank and a base wrap

Bill - willierods.com

I used to wrap A over A with no issues. D over A presents zero negative effects. I have, in the past, though that applying epoxy to every single layer of thread was the best thing to do. As time progressed I moved more to the "wrap everything and then epoxy" way of thinking. I have heard nothing that says this will not work just fine.

Bill -
I think from the standpoint of adhesion, yes. Greater surface area = better bond. Same reason we abrade the insides of reel seats & that "water break free surface". Yes, most rod blanks have a clear coat applied. "What is the difference between a clear coat and a base wrap?" The degree of penetration of the epoxy/finish through multiple layers of thread or absorption in and between layers. Which is "better" - I already wrote I have no idea if this is true or not. Logically I think it should be 'better' to under wrap / coat and then over wrap - but I've never had one fail by not doing that and it's faster to coat them both at the same time.

I was thinking of the ease to wrap and not have thread go in between the base thread On a heavy rod as that I would like a good tension on the guide thread but what ever is put over the base - if anything - is soft and makes it hard to pack thread. CP and finish.
One can also use NCP thread on the base and a good coat of perm I just feel it is a better way
If nothing goes on then thinned several coats of CP would soak in better then some of the thicker ones
Heck you can put several on in what an hour or less

I don't think any one sands any clear coating where they are putting a guide

Bill - willierods.com

Hi Paul,
Appologies for the delay. On an 80lb stick I would be putting a coat of finish between the overbinds to ensure the finish penetrated the thread and adhered to the guide foot. Then another two coats over the final overbind. That would give you maximum strength and the extra weight would probably not be noticed on an 80lb stick.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Col Chaseling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Paul,
> Appologies for the delay. On an 80lb stick I would
> be putting a coat of finish between the overbinds
> to ensure the finish penetrated the thread and
> adhered to the guide foot. Then another two coats
> over the final overbind. That would give you
> maximum strength and the extra weight would
> probably not be noticed on an 80lb stick.
>
> ESFNEM Col
> Port Kembla, NSW
> Australia





I would routinely double wrap D/D or A/D over heavy guides and feel I get great penetration with just one application of epoxy through it all. The disclaimer to that is that I've never cut one of my guides off to check this penetration (I've never had the need to cut off a guide I've tied on).

I always start my epoxy application by putting a drop, or drops, on the tip of each guide foot. Once I get all the feet finished I will go back to the first guide and start over again. If you wait a few minutes you will see epoxy wicking itself out from under the feet in the center of the guide. This tells me the tunnels are filling with epoxy. My next step is to apply epoxy to the sides of the feet. After that I coat the entire wrap. I don't think I'm leaving "dry" thread using this process. I could be wrong, but I'm a believer that the epoxy is liquid enough to wick from one layer of thread to the next.