Well,

This will be a follow up from a earlier post on the question about if you could spray Perma Gloss with success and have the desired results a builder would be looking for in their finish. I have decided to share this with everyone here on rodbuilding.org. To all of you who are searching for a way to get a finish that would be in comparison to our mas producing counter parts, and for those who are seeking a way to do cosmetic quick and easy repair on the bench. We all have our way of doing things and share are procedures here on this site. The procedure I am posting here is a outline on how to prep, mix, and apply a finish to a blank using a minimum amount of tools and product to achieve a finish or a cosmetic repair that would be comparable to (OEM). If there are any questions please feel free to ask. Please feel free to brainstorm on this as well, as it dose open up other aspects of cosmetic repair ideas that I have already put to use and have been very successful at. With this alone you will have no need for sending that blank to a painter or trying to match a color or just laying down a coat of clear to clean up some cosmetic blemishes. Ordering those high end painted blanks isn't even a consideration for me at this time. That's what I beleive I have changed in developing this process application method.

Spray Finish Application
For U-40 Perma Gloss

I will try to keep this simple and to the point. Like in all things we do there is always room for trial and error.
Tool and supply’s you will need on hand. You will need an Air Brush preferably one you will use just for this application alone, one small air compressor, one that will deliver enough air pressure 1/5 hp. The Air brush has to have a jar reservoir.
Keep in mind this is sticky stuff and you will have to clean the gun immediately after finishing your job. I will get into that later on in this write up.

You will need to get some Mineral spirits 100% (use the ACE brand or equivalent) it will say on the bottle: Thins oil based paints, varnishes, stains and Polyurethanes. (This is important because there are other brands and I have tried them and there to hot! In my experience with mixing paints you have to find the correct base to thin for the job and this was what I came up with. If it’s too hot it will change the pot life and flash times to erratic results. This brand is stable in the gun and on the blank)
Perma Gloss is your next item, I purchase it in the 4oz bottles and stick them in the fridge as soon as I get them (you all know the pot life on this stuff) keep a lid on it. Just before mixing take your bottle out and bring it to room temp. (Put a lamp on it to help it out) never remove lid until you’re ready to pour and mix.

Now that you have these items and you feel confident about you’re Tools I want to just go over a few things on prep before I go into the mixing application. Prep is about 90% of what your finish will look like, spraying it on is the easy part. Like an automotive painter they are meticulous about dust and contaminants’ make sure your prep work is spot on. I use alcohol 90% to degrease my blanks and I get it wet and I wipe till I am satisfied. I am wearing surgical gloves as well through this procedure. Of course you did scuff this blank prior to degreasing, I use scotchbrite green for this and with light pressure by hand scuff the entire blank (if you are getting a load of black your scuffing to hard) lightly scuff with very little black on your scotch pad. I think you all get the picture here now.

You’re blank is prepped and now you’re going to need to make sure your contaminant free with your jars, Air-Brush and the area your shooting in. Fill jar with some alcohol and shoot some through and check to make sure your brush is working properly adjust as needed to get the gun working properly. Make sure your jars are clean for mixing. I have prep wipes ready for this and for accidents.
Now for mixing, I use the little plastic cups we all bye at our convenient rod building supply outlets. They work well for what we are doing here and you will not be mixing very much. In fact one Jar will do a full blank 7’. I use the little plastic sticks to stir the mix. Have several on hand as to not contaminate your mix.

Pour your PG first it should be to room temp by now and ready 20mL into the cup. This is enough to fill the jar about ¾ of the way into your Airbrush jar (don’t over fill the jar) this will result in spraying malfunction.
Now add your Mineral Spirits to your PG, I use a pipit for this and have some already poured into a plastic cup. You should use 0.3mL to 20ML of PG this will give it the consistency to shoot it through you Airbrush. Mix it in with the PG for good 2 min and make sure you see no separation between your mixes. Once you have mixed it and your sure it’s together your ready to pour it into the jar. Now depending on humidity and temperature this might vary but not too much if you feel you need more, test it through your Airbrush and see if you’re getting good atomization from the tip. If not add 0.1mL of Mineral Spirits to get the correct viscosity. You should be good with what I have come up with in normal conditions.

You’re ready to shoot! You will have a 1.45 hour pot life on what is in the jar (spray time) It will take you about 25min to shoot the entire blank and possibly empty the jar. Flash time between coats is 15 min not very long. So if you’re going to do a second coat, be ready to mix another batch which is very simple to do!

Clean up is not very hard I don’t use acetone unless I got very lazy and didn't run some alcohol through the Airbrush. I use alcohol to clean the gun and I do take it apart to clean after a shoot. The price we pay for using the sticky stuff. Like anything we do practice safe handling of those chemicals we use. If there is any other questions or problems you run into please feel free to let me know I will try to give you my best knowledge on it!

Rick Heil

Rick H.

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Thanks for a great write up. How do you deal with overspray? I build in my dining room. Don't think the boss will appreciate me putting a dusting on her heirlooms.

Well Kurt,

I do as well work in my living room and I understand the Boss! I have posted some pics of this application method in process to show you as to how little you will need make this application method work for you. Yes you are correct in those pictures, I am shooting color for that blank. You can use pigments in the mix as well, and the green rod with the lettering was the final product of that shoot. I do use a fan at the door to help get rid of the odor fast but it is only for about 20 min or so and your free to call it a living a room again LOL. I wanted to show you all this really dose work in application not in theory. I have done over 20 rods and sold them with satisfied customers, who even actually created some of there own colors for there finish. Doing a rod repair makes this application method a must have for me when restoring a vintage or high modus blank. I don't have to turn them down and say I cant match it or it will not be cost effective to do. Enjoy the pics and I hope this gives you an idea of what kind of booth you may construct in your own studio.

Link to Pics

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Have a great Week Builders !

Rick H.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2011 05:12PM by Rick Heil.

Spray out side Or i know a good lawyer LOL

Bill - willierods.com

Rick, do you spray as the blank is turning , or do you turn by hand?

Dave Norton

Hello David,

Well depending on the kind of painter you are there is some things to consider: Distance, speed, fan control (atomization)from the gun. This can have numerous variables from the end user and the choice of tools and conditions. I thought of machine turning my blanks and opted against it because of those aspects. I turn by hand and rest the tip only on a plastic piece. The other ends are either taped or ferreled with dowel to hold and turn from the other end and hanged on a plastic catch piece. The last 1/4 inch of the blank need not the coverage we all know why LOL.

After posting this procedure I will probably need one Bill LOL. Good day to you !

Rick H.

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This process would make a GREAT Rodmaker magazine article!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

By all means, I second that motion !!!! Good article though..

Rick,
Thanks a bunch for doing all the leg work & testing. I agree this would make a great article ... especially if Ralph added his comments

Im really surprised that you can use mineral spirits... From my experience mineral spirits leave an oily residue when you use it...


Did you ever get a chance to try a slow reducer???


Cool that you figured it all out.

Hello Casey,

Those are good questions I hope I can answer them to satisfaction. When I approached this project it was more like a disappointment that got me started. I was dissatisfied with the outcome of my attempts to duplicate a finish comparable to our mass producing counterparts. I was using what was available and cost effective to the craft to get my results, Perma Gloss being one of those products. In my past learning days with one of my old College professors in the mixing room, I paid close attention and paid for a few coffee breaks back then. The fella was a wealth of wisdom when it came to mixing paint.

I wanted to find the solution to my problems without changing any characteristics to what Perma Gloss was intended for. Reducing PG was the first part of my problem but I felt it could be possible.
Now like any company they have trade secret’s Trondak, Sikkins, and PPG to name a few, some are more forth coming with what they put in their product and others not so much. This was where my professor gave me the best advice; Find a reducer that is compatible, that will not change the overall pot life, flash time, drying time, adhesion characteristics and what the intended product is said to accomplish. Seems like a long list but most of that is really already there. With that said you can only start with the base reducers that you feel may be compatible to meet those aspects mention above.

Because of those trade secrets and that we do not know exactly what they put in their products; it’s getting lucky in my opinion as to finding the correct reducer compatibility. So with some experience and some fortunate happenstance this process found a solution!I did not want to change the characteristics of PG as it was intended to dry and cure, I was only trying to change its viscosity to spray it in an Airbrush successfully and have a finish that would be comparable to our mass producing counter parts. Thank you for asking Casey I hope I answered your question, even though I was long winded here I wanted everyone to understand the concept of my thinking here for clarification. I really think this will change someone’s technique in the craft if they decide to give it a try. The possibilities are wide open for us all to use this and be better at building those custom fishing RODS! Have a great week every one!

On another note, I want to thank you all for the kind response's and words and keeping this forum a great place to share!

Rick H.

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Did you ever get a chance to try a slow reducer???

Well - did you ??

Bill - willierods.com

Hello Bill,

No I did not, in fact the ones I did try were just to darned hot and some did not mix well and stayed separated for to long for my taste which told me it was not compatible at all. Those I didn't even try to test shoot even. Not worth the gun cleaning chore! Sorry Bill!
Is there reason your wanting to slow it down? If you did you could run into adhesion problems and curing issues. Hm Perhaps your wanting to slow it down for its original intended application method! That would give the user more time between coats on a longer blank. I could see the intent there of wanting to slow it down? Anyways good day Bill hope you find another who has tried to slow it down! If I do I will let you know ASAP !

Rick H.

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yes

I would like it to set slower
Every thing one reads on it is that it has to be put on - FAST - one quick stroke if it is touched again it is almost set A little fast

In order to use in a gun it would have to be a little slower to set so it does not dry in the gun
I thought that is what the Mineral spirits did

Bill - willierods.com

No Bill,

In fact the Jar is the secrete to that inquiry. Remember in the write up the Airbrush must be one used with a (Jar) this keeps it from catalyzing with moisture from the air. Hence why I included keeping a lid on things. I know what you mean though its got a very short pot life and flash point which makes it kinda tricky for the more meticulous and patient in mind. This was another reason I developed this procedure, your mix is in and out of a cup for only about 3 min and back into a Jar, so there is now real flash time involved until you atomize it from the Airbrush. Viscosity was the real issue, it has to be thin enough to atomize from a LVP source, and over spray is very minimal.

I hear your frustration though! I just took that product and made it work for me in this application, I have read about what the others have done with it but no success on slowing it down. But really! I think it was not intended to do that in its make up, as Tom K. pointed out in one of his post about this subject others have tried with undesirable effect later on down the road. That was one of my concerns to say the least but I had a different problem and it was getting it to atomize correctly only. If you tried slowing it down That would change the beast and it will act to its environment accordingly metaphorically here. If Trondak were wanting to share on the properties of there PG then perhaps there would be an answer, again that is were trade secretes come into play. Most likely they may come out with there own product that will be in the same category as 40-PG but with more adversity in its mixing composer! If I find and answer to this Bill B. I will make it a priority for you to be the first to know from me, I just don't have it right now.........soon perhaps ! Good day Bill B.

Rick H.

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But if you are looking for a clear to spray on a blank -- why not just use an auto Urethane Clear

it can be thinned so a small amount can be sprayed on - flexible - does not yellow -

Bill - willierods.com

Bill your full of questions today!

I agree with you and I see nothing wrong with the use of automotive clears or other paints in that part of the industry in use of getting that finish you so desire. Me coming from that industry my self so many years ago, I considered the use of it my self. But a few things I felt were concerns for me when I began this adventure in rod building. To me automotive paint is what it is automotive paint ! a protective coat to prohibit decay,protect a surface, while enhancing it cosmetically. The folks who make this stuff in there labs had automobiles on there minds...not fishing rods. The reason I say this is because I have read allot in this forum about others using it with great success and that's a good thing there getting it done! But in common sense automotive clears were designed to go over specific undercoats for adhesion purposes, even some require adhesion promoters, specific primer coats and prep to help with adhesion and the list goes on and on. Now with that said U-40 PG was designed for fishing rods and I am confident it was test with the use of a fishing rod and not a hood of a car in mind. I want to feel confident with my customer as do we all, and we have our own ways of going about it. If one feels confident in using automotive clear for a finish and has the means and cost effective way of doing it I say do it.

I suppose for me cost is my part I cant beat $8.00 for a bottle of PG that will do at least 4 rods it comes premixed in its own little bottle! and it comes clear already and I don't have to bye any special pigments or color for the automotive clear ...I use the pigments from Mudhole to color the PG, and the pigments will last me a life time. I suppose this is what makes me feel confident when I finish a rod for a customer and I know I can back what I handed to them with clear conscience. Anyways dinner is up and I am starving ! chow for now Bill !

Rick H.

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Nice write up for sure with great info! I use 2K auto finish and really after seeing the factory apply finish I feel this is my best choice. Both products can get you good results but.. I have tried to spray PG but no thinned with Mineral... I found that it gave me an egg shell finish which I beleive was from it flashing off to quick. Your method I'll have to try.

The question above about having the blank spin while it's sprayed. You DO NOT want it spinning not even slow. Unless you can move the airbrush back and forth on the blank before the section you started goes around to the back side. What can happen is you will get uneven coating or striped effect. The other thing about using a hobby airbrush it will be fine for very small diameter blanks but I have found they do not move enough paint to coat very efficiantly! I use what is called a jamb gun which is not full sized and not a hobby brush.

The problem spraying with a hobby brush. on a round object is that your coating the closest section of the blank with a heavy coat and fanning the upper and lower with mist. I have found that i need to have a wider spray pattern to get the most even coating I can. I spin the blank by hand an 1/8 of a turn after a coat up and down. So it goes:: Spray up, stop off the blank, spray down and turn and start again.. never start a spray on the blank as well. I also don't want to spend too much time fussing with uneven coating or not getting enough volume of paint with an airbrush and having to go over and over to get the color shot. For me a hobby brush doesn't cut it for anything with a butt over .500. but if it works for anyone else use it.

Hello John,

I was hoping there was another with some insight on this, and you are most correct in your assessment. The Blanks I build are salmon/steelhead and I have never done a blank in that diameter size. I also agree with coverage issues at that stage with the Hobby Airbrush as you call it and that's what it is in fact. It was cost effective (cheap) for testing purposes and if I destroyed it I wasn't out a great deal of money for the risk. The Airbrush you can pick up for about $15.00 at a Harbor Freight store the whole unit with pump for about $80.00. I figured it was a fair price to pay for an experiment with everything else already on hand. It beat the price for a devilbiss or a Sata HVLP and air-compressor to run HVLP guns and what not LOL .

With what you have mentioned I have already considered and I am working on currently as my next project to this date. I have already been doing my home work of testing coverage for larger blanks this past two months. Its good to know you are using a Jamb gun which is on my solution list with a few another things on the note pad. There are also some other specialty Airbrush models out there that have been looking at more volume and perhaps even a fan air control nob to boot out there! I can only wish LOL. Anyways give it a good go with that Jamb gun! If you do I would like to hear about it and how well it covered and if atomization was an issue. I don't beleive your gonna have a fish eye problem with this method if your prep is spot on! Good luck hope to hear back soon!

Rick H.

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As you said in your write up Rick and I couldn't agree and it can't be stressed enough about prep. I'm very anal about my prep and have it down to a science since again time is money and I can't spend a ton of time messing around. That said I can't and try not to compromise the quality by skipping over steps.

As for an spray gun my dream gun would have a spray head that would have a half moon tip section and a dial in knob for adjustment / fine ajustment. Yeah, the thin diameter blanks and hobby gun are fine but talk about a PIA when you trying to spray a larger blank. Lots of wasted paint and time and unsatifactory results. My next thing is to get an oven and a Century paint squeegee and some heat cure epoxy and just do it like the factorys!!