The reason for the post was I just came back from fishing the Bow River with my old Sage RPLX 5wt rod casting from a drift boat . I was casting a Weight Forward 5wt line about 30 feet and the cast collapsed. I put on a 7wt DTaper line and the rod cast much better.
Yes, one of the factors in all of this is the casting style of the angler. It was a frustrating experience . My guide lent me his Scott 5wt rod and I did much better casting at the same distance. The Scott rod was one of the least expensive rod in their line up. So, I'll have to go to a fly shop and test out different line weights on my old Sage or better yet build a new 5wt. Bill

On the rivers I fish I generally need to reach 65 to 70 feet.

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Bill,

The Sage rod you were using was no doubt designed to cast a long length of 5-weight line. Had you put perhaps, 40 or 45 feet of it past the rod tip it would likely have come to life for you.

The Scott rod was most likely a less powerful rod, designed to cast a 5-weight line at shorter distances.

But both rods are correctly labeled as 5-weight rods, insofar as the manufacturers of each is concerned.

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[www.common-cents.info]


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I really like my old RPLX rod! The fact that your troubles were solved by a DT fly line injects a variable which most of today's fly casters have never faced, because most of them are only faintly aware of and have never cast DT lines. Double taper lines are designed to last twice as long (double) as WF lines, but the long, weighty belly of a DT line permits it to be used effectively with more "weight" rated rods and at more distances than weight-forward lines. Not all our fly-fishing forebears were morons.

Correct me if I am wrong -- but I thought the CCS numbers were - by default -- 30' of line off the tip ???

Bill - willierods.com

By an (increasingly violated) agreement a fly line's listed "weight" is determined by the weight of its first 30', in grains. The amount of line a caster will carry in the air before "shooting" his cast will vary according to the length of the cast to be made, the wind, the caster's ability, and the caster's preference. After the first 30' the next 60' of a DT line will weigh considerably more than the equivalent length of running line in a WF line. This allows the caster to make much greater adjustments in the weight of line he false casts and how much he loads his rod, and increases the number of rod weights capable of efficiently casting a single line. Of course this benefit is balanced by the increased weight and diameter of the log DT "belly" vs. the relatively thinner and lighter WF running line.
Informed choices tend to be more useful than choices which rely solely upon marketing claims.

Bill,

No, the CCS has nothing to do with fly lines.

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Now I am confused I thought the numbers told the power of the blank -- and what line - may - be used at 30' that may load the rod or blank
When i first got into it that was my understanding

Bill - willierods.com

I have been following this thread since I returned from a trip to the Oregon Coast on Saturday. I have become perplexed the more I read. I thought Tom K nailed in his 7:40 PM post.

Suppose you were given a fly rod with no ratings on it and a reel loaded with fly line that was also unmarked. Could you cast that line with that rod? Except in one or two extreme cases, the answer is yes.

By letting a small amount of line out and roll casting you will be ready to cast. Now begin false casting and letting a small amount of line out each forward cast. Eventually you will "feel" the rod load. At this point you can cast the amount of line you have aerialized or you can let the line you have coiled on your hand or in a casting basket to shoot out on the cast.
From this you can say that this line casts this line well. However, you if have found that the rod loaded when you had 70 feet of line past the tip or perhaps the rod loaded when only 10 feet of line was past the tip when you released the line, you would probably like to use a different weight of line. I know that I do not like to aerialize 60 or 70 feet of line. I also don't like to have only 10 feet of line aerialized.
The important thing in this process is having enough weight beyond the tip to load the rod.
uke Blomme

PS: [I just checked my dictionary and it doesn't show aerialize as a word but I suspect you all understand what I meant.]

As the CCS gains more popularity (and I don't think there is any turning back now) I hope that users of the system will migrate away from describing fly blanks in terms of ERN or line weight and use the raw "intrinsic power" measurement that is expressed simply by the amount of weight required for the proper CCS blank deflection (i.e. 800g, or 12,346 grains, etc..) This would eliminate the confusion caused by translating raw intrinsic power into a line weight rating or some other subjective term like "heavy". It would also subject all blanks, fly or otherwise, to the same set of descriptive data.
Example: See the post above titled "mHX question... med-mag new". Raw intrinsic power would be extremely helpful in describing the blanks mentioned in that post.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Michael

I know I can do that with any blank spin cast fly and see how the blank loads with how much line ---- passed the tip --- If i am making a fly rod out of a spin or cast blank In that case --- Why even use the CCS and check a blank --IF IT TELLS YOU NOTHING

It was made to - Measure fly blanks Does it not tell one what line-- MAY-- work to load that blank ???

Why have numbers for the speed and or power -- yet also numbers for a --- Suggested --- line

There has to be Some Starting Point

Yes ???
If not I should just buy blanks throw some guides on and see if That Blank will cast the line I want it too

Like Tom always said one inch -- is one inch

Bill - willierods.com

Geoff,
I think you are right. When I first started using the CCS system I decided to use a balance and measure the grams needed to deflect the row one third of its length. I also made a plot of mass vs. ERN and can use this plot. Carrying it one step further as you suggested is a good idea.

Mike Blomme

Bill,

The CCS measures the relative power, action and speed of a rod blank. It tells you quite a bit. But it does not measure fly lines.

You can use the formula ERN = ELN as a starting point for selecting a fly line, but you may have to adjust this to ERN +1 = ELN, or ERN -2 = ELN, etc, etc. That all depends on the person doing the casting and what range you're casting.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2011 05:32PM by Tom Kirkman.

The problem is comparisons like the "5 Weight Shootout" where they specifically choose lines that are 1/2 size heavier than ATFMA, then are quite pleased when the higher ERN rods can cast further.
IMO a 4wt rod should not have an ERN of 7.5 - calling it "tip action" doesn't make it a better casting tool.

Part of the problem is that the consumer has come to believe that the rod that will cast a particular line the farthest, is the best rod. Manufacturers have responded to that.

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Nevertheless, common sense tells us there must be some definite correlation
among the strength or power of a rod, the distance one wishes to cast, and the fly
line one uses.
The expression ERN=ELN means, if one wishes
to “balance” the power of one’s rod to the weight
of 30 feet of fly line, this is the proper relationship.
It does not mean one should or must adhere to it—
especially if that doesn’t “feel” as good as some
other combination. By all means, use what feels
best to you. Nevertheless, that is the relationship
for a “CCS Balanced Outfit.”

Bill - willierods.com