With ;modern fast rods is a 5wt really a 5wt? Note substitute any line weight and the question remains the same. It been my experience that with fast rods one can over-line them by at least one line weight and the rod will perform better than what it's rated for. That being said , I know that it has to do with ones casting abilities and stroke. What do you guys think? Bill

I think you have to factor the distance of the intended casting range. An argument can be made for overlining or underlining any rod, given the right set of circumstances.

As Jim mentions, it really depends upon the casting distances. As there is no standards for assigning line weights to rods, the figures are a beginning point only! "overlining" is popular for fast rods as most fly fishing (except heavier weights) is usually done at relatively short distances.

As tom K. often points out............"any rod will cast any line, it all depends upon thelength of line loading the rod."

It also depends on how you want the rod to -- Feel -- when casting any line

Bill - willierods.com

Over or underlining (as already stated) has more to due with the distance, experience of the caster and type of fly then the fact that the rod is "fast". It has been my experience that overlining a very fast rod will help inexperienced casters cast a given weight better. I use a 7wt RX8+ for most of my inshore saltwater and fresh water (bass, pike etc) fishing. I cast a 8wt line on it because I am almost always casting large, wind resistant flies.

Quinn

Also depending on distance you want to cast A 5 wt will cast a longer distance with a 4 wt line and with a 6 wt line will cut thought windy conditions yet cast well at shorter distances Also depending on CCS numbers on the blank

All blanks cast a certain - Weight - weather it is a lure weight or a line weight ----- it is still weight

And with out the Proper Weight to load the blank it does not cast well -- or feel well

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,

At what distance? You're leaving the biggest part of the equation unstated. When you see a rod rated as a "5-weight rod," you can be sure that it loads easily and casts well with that line at the distance the manufacturer intended. What you don't know, is what is that distance?

The action really has nothing to do with your question - action is where the rod initially flexes, not how much power it has.

Before you can ask "Is a 5wt really a 5wt" you'll have to define what a 5-weight rod is.

..............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2011 05:25PM by Tom Kirkman.

I hear you Tom

The CCS is at what 30 ' off the tip

But then again when some one casts a fly rod at whatever distance it can be adjusted with a lighter or a heavier line hence the feel

I myself like to feel the line Pulling on the back cast - how much line is out -- hay just to tell me I should do my forward cast

How any thing feels in the hand A hammer, a bow and arrow
A rod is an Extension of your hand and arm

Bill - willierods.com

The CCS measures action, power and speed. Those things won't change no matter how much line is past the tip. Not sure what you mean by "30' off the tip."

..........

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> At what distance? You're leaving the biggest part
> of the equation unstated. When you see a rod rated
> as a "5-weight rod," you can be sure that it loads
> easily and casts well with that line at the
> distance the manufacturer intended. What you don't
> know, is what is that distance?
>
> The action really has nothing to do with your
> question - action is where the rod initially
> flexes, not how much power it has.
>
> Before you can ask "Is a 5wt really a 5wt" you'll
> have to define what a 5-weight rod is.
>
> ..............

+1.......Power has nothing to do with action. On the other hand, many manufacturers advertise over (or heavier) powered rods as fast acton quite often. Why? For those of us who prefer fast action rods (or for me anyway) it is the short flick of the rod (or wrist) that creates the line speeds that allow us to load a fast action rod at shorter distances and with less effort. To acheive this "effortless" feel, I believe it is benificial to have a slightly more powerfull rod along with a fast tip. So just because CCS says its a 5wt doesn't really mean its a 5wt at all. Its all relative.
There really is no defintion of what a 5 weight is or should be. If I design a rod with a CCS ERN of 6,5, and feel like it casts to my liking as a 5 weight, why cant I put a 5 weight label on it ?

Take the Sage TCX for example. ERNs on these things are wayyyyy over what CCS considers a 5 weight yet I love the way they cast a 5wt line. Therefore its a 5wt.

The CCS doesn't label any rod as a "5-weight." ERN is power, not line weight.

A rod with an ERN of 6.5 will cast lines from 3 to 10 equally well, at some distance. You can put any label you want on it and that won't contradict the ERN measurement. Again, ERN is power, not line weight.

.............

it is basically a Crap - shoot No two blanks flex the same and when numbers are put on a -- few -- out of a batch of blanks made they will not all CCS the same They are all made with human hands
Feel is in the hands of the Caster

Bill - willierods.com

Fly line are measured by the first 30 feet of line weighed in grains. I don't have the chart in front of me you get the idea. If line "a" weighs "x "grains in the first 30 ft then it's a "blank" weight line, an so on. As far as the line wt goes on a fly rod there is no standard on what constitutes a 5wt 6wt 7wt or whatever. The Mfg goes by it's designs of that taper and design of that blank graphite material and then cast the designed taper and finished rod to see which line class it throws the smoothest without an overloaded feeling to the rod and of course breakage. So there is a standard to fly lines not rod wt ratings. You would be surprised at how many size line weights( different mfgs) a 5wt will throw.

To answer the original question "Is a 5wt really a 5wt" the answer is yes and no. If you put a 5wt line on it and cast it and like it then yes. On the other hand if you put a 6wt line on it and like the way it cast (or feels) better then a 5wt than no. I advise people to find a rod that they like the feel of before they come to me to build a rod for them. This way it gives me a better understanding on type of feel they are looking for. I find most fly casters (except the very skilled casters) really are not sure on how to describe what they want in a custom rod.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The CCS doesn't label any rod as a "5-weight." ERN
> is power, not line weight.
>
> A rod with an ERN of 6.5 will cast lines from 3 to
> 10 equally well, at some distance. You can put any
> label you want on it and that won't contradict the
> ERN measurement. Again, ERN is power, not line
> weight.
>
> .............

Tom
I am in total agreement with you. I think many misuderstand that ERN is simply a measure of power. I think the confusion comes from the good doctors suggestion ( or reference) that a 5 weight "should" fall somewhere in the 5 to 6 ERN measure at that 30' carry. Its been a while since I've read the artical but I think that was his suggestion anyway. Am I wrong?

Dr. Hannemans own words:

"A rod’s ERN is a measure of the force required to load,
but not overload, that rod. An average rod designed for a
No. 6 fly line should exhibit an ERN value of 6.5. The force
required to load a rod defines its weight designation. If
the ERN of a rod is less than 6.00 or greater than 6.99, it
cannot be called a 6-weight rod.
Although all of the the rods in Figure 5 were designated............."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2011 06:28PM by Larry Damore.

As fare as I could figure the numbers should be As a 5 should read about 4 and above .50 or .60 but at 6 and below about .50 or .40 Seems to work as a 5 wt

Bill - willierods.com

You,re not wrong. Any confusion is from the equation ERN equals ELN. But that's just a suggestion as to how to match a line to a power for the average guy. All the rods I use with 5-weight lines have ERN of about 6 to 6.8.

Your right also Tom

6.8 to me MAY be more of a lite 6 wt

Then again it all depends on how fare and the feel of what is in your hand

more or less personal preference

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,

I think you may be missing the point. AFTMA set up a rating system for fly lines, but not for fly rods. It takes a certain amount of weight/effort to easily and completely load a rod possessing a certain amount of power. The weight of a fly line changes as you move more or less of it beyond the rod tip.

Any rod will cast a 5-weight line and can thusly be deemed, correctly, a "5-weight" rod by the maker. Any rod will cast a 5-weight line, with some amount of that line beyond the tip.

The CCS ERN measurement gives you a relative measurement of any rod's power. It does not prescribe any particular line to any particular amount of rod power. A rod with an ERN of "5.0" might do very well with a 6 or 7-weight line at 15 to 25 feet, equally well with a 5-weight line at 30 to 60 feet, and equally well with a 4-weight line at 60 to 80 feet.

................

Tom, why such a powerful rod casting a 5 wt. line? Are you typically casting more than 30 to 45 feet? Also does underlining help with delicate casts? So much to learn.