I'm with Chuck... heard about the new Batsons for a while... haven't seen one and I think delivery is delayed? Maybe after ICast?

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I have a tournament fisherman friend of mine that has several of my rods with Batson Micro's. He has sheared off 2-4 guides at a time SEVERAL times! All done in today's rod lockers. Not a single guide "pulled out". Every time, 100% of the time they are sheared off, never pulled out. Like Steve I have not had one pull out yet! Sheared guide: (what you are seeing here is the top of the guide neck sticking up out of the thread, the guide foot never moved) [www.rodbuilding.org]

What I don't understand is builders wanting a "built up" of epoxy on the backside of the guide foot to "help hold it in". The last thing I want to see is a build up of epoxy on the back side of a micro or ANY guide, the look alone makes me shiver! You can see in my photo how much build up was behind that sheared off guide of mine: none! It didn't need it, none do.

DR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2011 07:44PM by Duane Richards.

Mr. Richards,
It seems to me that the neck on those particular guides was the weak link in the chain. Lets assume that link is fixed by widening the neck and/or thickening the neck material on each manufacturer's latest version of micro guide. Wouldn't you assume that the next failure scenario would be the guide pulling out of the thread wrap?
I've tested pull out strength on micros wrapped with thread only vs. thread with finish and the difference in results was staggering (15+lbs difference). Some of the holding strength almost certainly comes from a small amount of finish located in front of the guide neck. I think many builders simply finish slightly past the guide neck just to make sure the thread wrap is completely finished. I know this is common on production rods.
I personally like to have a small amount of finish wick up the neck of the micro guide because I believe it further stabilizes/protects the neck from work hardening and helps prevent line tangles. However, I will admit that it may not be as aesthetically pleasing to everyone.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Well,

In my practiced method of principals and science here, and with the use of any guide on a fishing rod. Moisture is a the one common battle we all face in the craft, it's a given that is were these tools are used most often in there elemental area. Most often than not, the neck base is the one place were water and moister commonly finds its way under the wrap and guide hence guide failure and risk of pull out. I use a simple pin head drop at the base of the neck of the guide and apply heat to wick or settle it from the neck base to the blank. This insures me further that I have sealed the guide properly and moisture will not find its way in under my wraps. Its not globed on by any means, and cosmetically speaking the look is finished and tidy in my eyes. Like I have mentioned before everyone has there methods and practices and like what they see its not about right or wrong. Common sense really plays the role in all we do!

Geoff I plan to order some of these guides for my next build, and will give you my feed back on how it goes. I like the design and I like the depth in the neck, ring and frame. I started this post as to get some insight on there ease of application and any other information pertaining to there field use as well. As you know I am an unbiased builder, I at least try to keep my questions and inquiry's to the subject at hand.

With that said....I will have to tell you that I have received some feedback from my field testers on there rods. They have managed to shear off a guide, after inspection and the story, it was done from storing the rod and removing the rod from its place. A simple accident really. The guide was sheared off at its base and the foot remained in the wrap, as was the second rod. Pull out was not an issue as I could see, but the guide neck is were the failure occurred. So with that said this was a good reason to ask about these new FX guides and I am in hopes these will have better results in that area of ...should I say (mishap function) LOL enough said for now I need to do some cork work! Good day! To you all !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

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Mr. Staples,

More of the story: in my case I rarely, VERY rarely use CP. I also use slower thinner finish, meaning I always have finish wick under and around the guide foot ending up behind the guide. I "wipe away" this excess finish as it cures until the finish movement stops. Usually about 1-2 "wipes" as the rod turns over the first 25min of turning. So as you can see, I do indeed have finish behind the guide foot, but not enough to "build up" and give it a poor look.

You may surely enhance the neck, and it may help from sheering, but if it doesn't sheer and flattens the guide, likely it will still fail when bent back into position, but maybe not? I'd guess it will flatten before pulling out. But that is only a guess at best.

I agree that finish adds strength, I stated that years ago to much dismay of many.

You'll have to prove that less line guide wraps to me, I just cant see how finish behind the guide would stop or help line guide wraps. I've used braid before most knew what it was, and I have yet to have a single "guide wrap" in my fishing lifetime. Now I have had a rod tip wrap or two, before I learned how to prevent them.

DR

Mr. Richards,
I also have never had line tangle around a guide so I would agree that's a non-issue (superstition on my end). You are correct that a guide will bend before it pulls out. I have work hardened samples of our micros with pliers to the point of failure. I was able to bend the guide flat (90 degrees) and back again 10-12 times before failure on the ones I tested. I would say that ceramic ring failure would be the greatest threat when experiencing a bent guide frame.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Mr Staples I totally agree.

The one exception to the frame failure rate you stated in my expierance is titanium. One bend with this material could prove fatal. :-)

DR

Rick,

When that type of abuse is present, which would you rather occur, that the guide shear off, or the guide stay put and the rod snap?

At some point, under some amount of abuse, something has to give. I'd rather it be the guides than the blank. Just something to keep in mind.

.............

Tom

I agree with that and I was just discussing that with one of my testers on the phone as I was reading this post LOL. I could have been allot worse if the $200 blank busted instead. With that said.....I was more content with the guide busting were it did for the most part. I told him he needed a betters storage area for those rods to insure this kinda thing will be in less frequency of happening. Good day !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

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DR,

Don't look at my rods or you might shiver real bad. I like a little finish build up on a micro. I have lots of rods out there with Batson, Fuji and Amtack guides and have never had one shear off.

A good custom rod is an expensive tool, and it would be prudent to be careful and take good care of them. It doesn't matter if you are a recreational angler or a tourney pro.

The new K guides were designed to help with the problem of braid wrapping around the guide. Some folks call this a wind knot. Call it whatever you want. A little build up of finish around a micro guide helps the braid release. Why would we make this stuff up, and why would you doubt it? Do you believe Fuji put the money into R&D and production startup to produce BKTAG guides down to 4mm guides just because they look cool? And why do you suppose they call them "Tangle-Free" ?

I shiver when I see a micro on a tourney rod wrapped with metallic thread. I wonder what pull-out tests on that setup would be?

Chuck

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

Chuck M,

I was a pro staff member for Power Pro (Innotex) for many years. I had braided line in hand and using it before the brand Power Pro was created, back then it was Western Filament. I've written many articles on braided line and spent years of testing time. Not that any of that matters, but I was giving you the background for my doubt.

All this time I have never seen a guide wrap that wasn't angler error. Guide wraps are created by loose line falling onto the guides while in motion. A guide wrap will never happen on a cast, if you can show me it will, I'll gladly admit my wrong. Wind knots (no such thing really) are created by loose line reeled onto the spool of a spinning reel. On the cast the line grabs the loose loop and pulls off line prematurely creating the so called wind knot. On casting gear the wind knot is created by the spool moving faster than the line going out, or the line slowing while the spool continues at it's higher speed.

Line in motion through guides is not going to wrap itself around any guide, so... your build up of finish or Fuji's tangle free style is going to help ONLY if loose line is thrown onto the guides BY angler error. I dont blame Fuji for trying to create an "idiot proof" style in their guides, or you for adding the extra finish to help prevent that angler error. But used correctly, you'll never once have a guide wrap on any rod ever. Guide wraps most commonly happen when an angler frees a snag, or makes a quick jerk back of his rod throwing the loose line back at the rod and onto the guides with line in motion.

Metallic thread: I'll put metallic thread against plain nylon when it comes to guide pull out, did you not notice my photo was with metallic? I rarely use anything but metallic. I consider some brands of metallic stronger than many plain nylon's.

DR

I never said it happens on a cast. It doesn't happen often. But it happens. Heck, in the heat of the battle I've had line wrapped around lots of things. :) From the reading I've done, I am not alone.

Chuck

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2011 12:48AM by Chuck Mills.

Yep Chuck you are not alone. :-)

One thing remains true, the line has to be put, or fall, onto the guide and the angler has to move the line to get it tight around the neck of the guide frame. It just cant happen any other way.

I can see where the build up of finish on both sides of the guide totally covering the neck of the guide could help by having a non exposed neck for the line to wrap around.

At the thought.....I just Shiver! LOL!

DR :-)