The minima 4 guides have a SS304 ring instead of a ceramic ring. I don't see a problem with the guides but the tip has me concerned. How will SS304 stand up against braided lines. Anyone have any experience with this.

Thanks

John

Every used SS304 tip that has come through my shop has had grooves in them and some guys say they've haven't even used braid. I often see the first guide down from the tip with grooves in it also. To me, the grooves are a bad thing. I feel like it has a tendency to abraid/fray the line. Take any SS304 guide and wrap it on a wood dowel. Turn the dowel upside down and mount it horizontally and secure. Now, run some braid through the guide and saw back and forth in a downward motion with moderate pressure. You'll cut through the guide in usually less than a minute. Do the same with ceramic , same pressure, and you might never cut through it. This is not indicative of what happens in a fishing situation, just a test of the differences in the materials. You can be the judge as to the look and function you want.

Use a ceramic tiptop.

The MInimas seem to be doing well with braid, but remember, these guides don't have a terribly long track record at this point so we really don't know. PacBay states that they can handle braid, however.

...........

Thats a good tid bit to know and be aware of good thread !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

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A chrome #4 American Tackle tip with a Nanolite ring matches size 4 Minima’s very well.

Thanks for the info, I will inspect the tip and guide regulary.

John

I would like to state a few facts regarding the Minima guides and tops.

1. Minima guides have been in use by large scale rod manufacturers for over a decade. Their creation was commissioned specifically to reduce warranty returns due to shattered ceramic rings, which while harder than stainless steel are also more brittle. PacBay makes no claims that Minima guides will withstand more abrasion from fishing line than a ceramic ring will. We do claim that Minima guides will withstand far greater impact-type abuse commonly experienced under real world fishing conditions.

2. Past tests have shown that mono will cut through stainless (304, 316 or otherwise) faster than braid due to mono being harder than braid. Braided line does do more damage once it picks up an abrasive like sand.

3. NOT ALL STAINLESS STEEL RINGED GUIDES ARE MINIMA. There are numerous knock-off Minima guides on the market today. We see them in the larger sporting goods stores all the time. Many of these guides don't have industrial hard chrome, but rather decorative chrome applied to the stainless rings. In order to resist grooving, the stainless rings must have industrial hard chrome applied as all Minimas do (even PVD coated Minimas which have industrial hard chrome applied underneath the PVD finish.)

4. If you are fortunate enough to fish often enough to put a groove in a Minima top or guide (given a long enough timeline even ceramic will groove) please send it in for warranty consideration. Warranty returns, provide vital data used to continuously improve product. If you have a question regarding whether or not an item qualifies for warranty, give us a call, we'll be glad to help.

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I an glade I don't buy things that come out right away.

Bill - willierods.com

Geoff,
I have built many many rods with the minima guides - including the minima tips and have had no rods come back for any reason. Much less for guide wear.
I have several personal rods built with minima guides as well and have had no issue with any of them either.

I like the product and will continue to use the product.

Take care
Roger

Don't compare raw 304 stainless with industrial hard chrome plating. They aren't remotely equal. It also isn't right to equate hardness with wear resistance in ceramics as that is a much more complex equation. I think people are reaching the wrong conclusions and unfairly judging a product that has established a proven track record.

Industrial hard chrome is upwards of 1200 vickers/72 Rc. That is indeed a far cry from SIC but clearly it isn't nearly as fragile either. One would be wise to consider the ratio of fracture toughness to hardness when evaluating a ceramic's wear characteristics.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Clarification

I just wanted to say I took it in no fashion that these guides were defective or in some way not functioning from there intended use. I was inferring to the fact that I need to be aware of wear and tear on a general basis. Using common sense here folks! The guides on the rods I have built are just fine and are catching fish on this very day ! with happy costumers ! Good day builders and fisherman !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

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If users are allowing their rods to suffer "impact-type abuse", then they're probably breaking more blanks than loosing rings. Need to do a better job of determining/matching the blank/hardware to what kind of service the rod is exposed to.

John: the 'impact type abuse ' that gets to me for repairs comes primarily from tournament bass fishermen. They want light but fish the stick like its a tuna pole crossed with a .50 browning. They roll around on decks, get stood on, jammed into lockers and used to free up stuck lures in brush piles.
The no questions asked warranties on certain rods made that get worse not better.
I use 60% minimas. I have had a problem rate of just less than one out of 200 guides. The ceramic ringed micros, more like one out of 40 to 60 depending on size and brand.They have been getting better. I have some factory rods that see both fresh and salt use that have minimas which are around 10 years old.
That is pretty decent to my mind.I have only used braid on them.

maybe some one can tell me WHY some are have then groove and another after 10 years nothing ????

This makes no cents

Bill - willierods.com

Bill, are you sure the grooved ones are genuine minima's? There are a bunch of clones of them out there.Cheap nasty things on rod and reel sets that sell in big box store for $30 .
There is one that has a black frame with a shiny silver ring that i know rusts through within a month or two.

Good question ??

10 years ? How long have they been out

I am going to send out some e-mails

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2011 11:47AM by bill boettcher.

Mr. Boettcher,
A likely variable could be a particular abrasive being picked up by the fishing line. The worst case I have ever seen sent in was a set used with fly line. I estimate that the line had a fly dressing on it, was casted over dry land and picked up something gritty which then caused grooving on the guides. That being said, we have many customers who swear by Minimas for their fly rods, especially in Europe. The same thing could happen with snake guides or XB boat guides which also are made of stainless with hard chrome applied. I personally use Minima guides on my salmon/steelhead plug rods (mono) and salmon/steelhead float rods (braid) and have had no problems thus far. I also keep any and all Minima guides sent back to us with grooving issues here in my office. I have a total of three instances sitting on my window sill and I have been here since 2009. I have heard more than three accounts of grooving but have been unable to get the items returned to us. It is very important for product to be sent back to be evaluated when a problem is suspected. Contact info is available on our website www.fishpacbay.com.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Well said Geoff. End users need to understand that there is a partnership between those that make and those that use. No company can test a product under all possible conditions. A company like pac bay, with a proven reputation, is certainly interested in feedback in improving their products. It is up to us to provide that, not to listen to rumors on a forum and conclude we shouldn't try something. Particulary when there are a 100 happy customers for every one guy that claims problems.

Cutting edge performance always come with the risk of potential failure. I have seem lamiglass, one of the true leaders, called lamibreak and people turned away from them. Sure they made some stuff that had problems. They also made it right for the customer (not to mention some of the best blanks known to man). That tends to happen more with american guns and rods than most. We need to support such excellence or we will end up with those that won't give us the time of day.

I'll be placing my order this weekend. Bill let us know the weight savings and Tom loves them. That alone is good enough for me. To know who stands behind them is iceing on the cake.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I would like to clarify that the Minima guides have been in use by certain manufacturers for over a decade, but sold to the open market under the name "Minima" since late 2008.
Also, in response to Mr. Auret's post about the black frame with chrome ring; we will be offering this frame/ring color combo in our upcoming catalog due to popular demand. Ours however, will have an industrial hard chromed ring like other PacBay Minimas. You can tell the difference between industrial hard chrome and decorative chrome by the appearance. Industrial hard chrome will have a light silvery/frosted look to it where decorative chrome typically is very shiney. I have personally not yet seen knock-off Minimas for sale to the custom builder (I'm sure they are out there somewhere.) Like many things these days, it may just be a matter of time. I suggest only buying Minimas from one of our authorized dealers.

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BatsonEnterprises.com