This is the 6th rod I've had problems with Madeira thread. For some reason, only this brand fisheyes on me. The first rod I didn't care about, it was a hack job broken rod re-cut for ice fishing, fish eyed like @#$%&. The next two I had the same problem and it was two different color spools of thread than the first. Only over the thread would I have problems. The first rod, there was no CP on the thread, the second and third(two different colors) I put CP on them and I still had problems, just less fisheyes. So I suspected that something was contaminated even though rods in between these came out fine, with and without CP. So I went nuts with the DNA, everything got the treatment, new blades, thread tensioners, rod wrapper eyes, epoxy tools, finshing cups, and brushes got washed down. 4th and 5th rods were the same spool of thread, again, a different color all together, no CP, tons of fisheyes. It would seem that on that before the 3rd coat, I had to about scrub the finish with dna soaked coffee filters and on some of the finish, you could see a sheen. So I find myself with Madeira thread on a project again, two rods to finish, one with Madeira thread, another rod with prowrap, CP on both, and I still have fisheyes on the Madeira thread wraps. And it's only on the wraps, the bare sections of blank I wrote on took finish like a champ. I'll have to scrub with DNA again before the 3rd coat tonight to get this fixed......I am using Prokote finish if that makes a difference. Has anyone else seen this problem?

-Andrew

This is why I tell people don't use Madeira for guide wraps. Even with CP the same thing that happened to you happens to me. For Dec WRaps I never ever have a problem. I stopped worrying about it and trying to figure it out, now I use Nylon for guides and leave it at that. Makes no sense, but that's how it is for me.

Use Classic Coat Acrylic CP. I'm the worlds worst about contaminets, washing hands, dirt, whatever. I use two heavy coats and I never have any problems.

Andrew, Your CP might have something to do with it. I had problems too until I started to use U40 CP and I SOAKED the threads with two coats. After that, never had a problem and I have wrapped about 200-300 rods with the Madeira. The U40 appears to be a thicker CP. using other brands they looked thinner to me and I had lots of problems. Shove some CP down the tunnels also.

Try a mock up wrap with that CP and hopefully your problems will be solved.

Buzz

I do guide wrap all the time with maderia thread. Three heavy coats of Chromaseal and finish off with 2 coats of Threadmaster. Whatever you do do not thin the cp.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

I think I'll just steer clear of this stuff, if it isn't clean to begin with, I don't want to use it. If I can't find the right color thread anywhere else, forget it, I won't build it.

Bill Havens posted this trick on another board. He puts a small piece of Madeira thread in with his epoxy while mixing. I've tried it and it works like a charm. Don't know why it works but it does.

I do the same as Lane, throw a few strands of the thread in the epoxy mix and never have a problem.

What I generally do is give the wraps a nice wet coat. Then Baby-sit them until I see the area At the channels start to fade or get dull. This tells me the CP has socked in I then add more just to that area. I want to make sure there is enough CP in the channel

After it sets up. I then give it another coat

Bill - willierods.com

I use 2 coats of CP and use mostly Madeira (even on guide wraps) and have no fish eye problem. Keep in mind that most sewing threads are treated for running through high speed sewing machines and need CP. A LOT of builders use it, along with other polyester threads, with no problems. Don't give up!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Hi Andrew,
Another who uses a lot of Madeira on guide wraps. I also use Threadmaster cp and finish. I use 3 coats of cp and let the last coat dry overnight before applying finish, never had a problem with fish eyes. It's the silicon that the thread is treated with that causes the problem but enough cp and the problem disappears.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla NSW
Australia

Hey, Andrew.

I had issues with fisheyes using Madeira and will not use it any longer for wraps, however it can be done.

As others have suggested - 3 coats of CP (I use Chromaseal) but make sure you let the first coat dry for at least an hour and let the last coat dry 24 hours. Also, go light on the epoxy as the little bumps of all that CP become sparkle generating machines that I described in a recent post as "thousand points of light".

Tony

Andrew -

I do not want to reproduce the entire post for fear of violating protocol, but you should search the forum for a posting from Bill Cason of Cason Custom finishes who offer a CP product. He talks specifically about CP and threads with silicon in them.

He says "There is actually a good reason to let color preserver dry overnight. Even if the wrap looks dry, the fact is that it still has residual moisture in it that can have several unpleasant effects." and "... if you are using the CP on thread contaminated with silicone (like Madeira) then a failure to let it completely dry can allow the silicone to more easily reach the epoxy finish. We all know the consequences of that. Fish Eyes in your finish."

Cheers,

Tony

The problem is also the cure. It's the silicone in the thread changing the surface tension in certain spots in the epoxy. Painters deal with this a lot, and some use a "fisheye preventer" mixed with the paint... guess what the active ingredient is... silicone and/or wax! For some reason, if you saturate the coating with the offending silicone, the surface tension in ALL of the coating acts the same, therefore, no funny looking spots. Hence mixing the epoxy with a few threads tossed in. I've been researching this a lot in the last year or so and although I may not have explained it perfectly, it does work to an extent. I wrap guides with Madeira and no CP regularly now without issues, mainly 'cause I don't like CP on guides. You may find that there are other methods to make it work as well ;) Good luck!

What a great day to check the board before outing finish on my first effort using Madeira thread for the guides! Thank you all, as always for sharing.

Col. Chaseling, Mike Barkley, and Fred Yarmolowicz -

I am addressing you three because you mention that you do a lot of wraps with Madeira. I may have sounded confident in my posts on this thread (ha!) about using Madeira, but to be honest, I am now remembering more clearly some issues I have had with using Madeira on wraps.

I built a rod quickly last Summer for a trip to Alaska, using Purple Madeira and had fisheyes and some "sparkling". I came back and did the butt wraps using the techniques I espoused - long dry time and 3 coats Threadmaster - and these turned out fine.

So...thinking that NOW I know how to avoid these issues, I have stripped the guides off and re-wrapped them. After reading these posts, I started to be afraid, very afraid.

The guide wraps are coated three times with Threadmaster and waiting for epoxy. Please tell me it's going to be alright!

Thanks,

Tony