I have had several guide frames crack and split over tha past few years. This appears to happen for no apparent reason. I normally find that a guide has split when taking the rod out of the rack ready to go on a trip when the insert falls out onto the floor. I decided to put up a note here after i found a cracked and split frame on a Fuji CHBNG heavy duty silicon nitride II guide on my Calstar GF700H. The rod has not been used, and was built a couple of years ago got yrllowfin tuna, since then it has remained in the rack awaiting the big day. This is infact about the tenth rod that I have found this problem on-each time the scenario is very similar. The rod will have had very little use or none at all. All are stored in proper racks in my office at home, and there would appear to be no real reason for the guide frames to crack....other than from heat/cool thermal expansion/contraction affecting the frame material...This never happened to me in 30 years living in Europe. A few years in the tropics and things behave quite differently. I wondered if any one else has had an isue with this !

The only time I've seen frame rings crack is when rods are fished in the salt, not cleaned and then the corrosion thins the frame and a crack or split takes place. If your rods have been kept free of corrosion, I really have no idea why they'd split or crack.

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It can happen. Rare but I have seen frame failure even on a brand new guide. I just posted a photo on the photo page of a brand new guide with a cracked ring frame. I bent the frame a tiny bit just to show the crack better. This guide was wrapped on a rod and I never noticed it until I had it under magnification getting ready to apply finish. I seen the crack and had to remove and replace the guide. Just saying frames can fail for no apparent reason. [www.rodbuilding.org]

DR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2011 02:36PM by Duane Richards.

I am going to assume these guide frames are made from 316 Stainless Steel. Any Stainless with a smaller number would probably be too ductile to use for guide frames.
During the manufacturing process of heating and stamping the Chrome molecules combine with the Carbon molecules creating Chromium Carbide. This causes the material to become very brittle
There are ways to correct this problem by re-heating (Annealing) and cooling at the proper rate. This re-heating or Stress Relieving process will redistribute the Carbon and Chrome molecules back to their normal structure.
All these controlled processes cost money and slow down production.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it ! Unless Bill Stevens chimes in and corrects me. Bill is a renowned Metallurgist and has done some consulting work for the TVA back when I worked for them.

J.B.Hunt
Bowling Green, KY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 11:37PM by Jay Hunt.

I too fish in tropical climate. I have also had many lost ring. Now my rods are fished HARD.but cleaned religously after each use. The biggest problem seems to be with the ring frame cracking which causes the ring to fall out. Even on titanium guides on occasion but not much. I would suggest you use am tackle ring lock pressed guides with titanium frames, or recoil guides or if fuji use the knew K series. All of these guides so far have been the ticket for both myself and my customers. Also if you have the older am tackle guides they had issues with there first guides. They were real good with me about replacing them if the insert failed.

Thank you all for your replies. I stared this thread to see who else had found this happenning without apparent reason. I was pushed to post out of curiosity by the fact that the last guide to do this on me was a heavy framed Fuji, I was quite surprised. A deep pressed heavy framed guide designed to take some abuse for heavy work, in this case a tuna rod rated at 30-80lb.... This phenomenon has not been restricted to one brand or type of guide other than they are all ceramic insert in a stainless frame and all are very lightly used or unfished rods stored in a purpose built rod rack. My own theory is that the problem is caused by repeated expasion/contraction from temperature differences between the mid twenties to the mid to upper thirties on a daily basis over prolonged periods of a year or two. There should not have been any corrosion, or at worse only slight, because most are unused. I also look after my rods meticulously, cleaning them and protecting them regularly with car wax, carnuba to be exact-so I believe I have reason not to suspect corrosion, and I see no sign of corrosion on any the affected guides. The rods are not abused or even used alot, so wear and tear should be ruled out. My fly rods with snakes have been fine, as are the rods with titanium guides-so far !
I will add though that Manila, where I live is badly polluted from vehicular exaust and the climate is extremely humid leaving things sweaty and collecting a sooty deposit quick enough.....I wonder if this could also be a contributing factor?

I'm wondering if the heat from grinding may be a part of it on larger guide frames? Doubtful, but.....


DR

Where ever it changes color from grinding will be the only place affected by the heat. I think the problem lies in the temperature controls of the manufacturing process. Even cold forming of the frames will cause molecule disruption , in turn causing brittleness. It doesn't have to be heat that causes this problem. In either case, cold forming or hot forming, the frames must be Annealed afterward.

J.B.Hunt
Bowling Green, KY

I use a diamond file when dressing the feet of guides-I was given them 25 odd years ago, Good for Aftco big foots(though a bit of work) to #6 snakes ! Their still as good as new and they cut fast with no heat.

Plated frames , like chrome plated , can be embrittled during the plating process. Its called Hydrogen Embrittlement. There is a lot of hydrogen atom activity in a plating bath. Most times we see hydrogen as H2 which will not penetrate into the metals but the singal hydrogen atom is very small and will penetrate into the metals. It sits on the grain boundaries and forms hydrides. The grain boundary films can make the metal as brittle as glass. Stresses in the metals from forming tend to increase the rate at which the hydrogen atoms are absorbed and concentrated at the grain boundaries.

In plating , when a negatively charged metal ion is plated on to the frame , there is a H+ ion that is reduced creating the neutrally charged H atom. Its called the reduction of protons (because a hydrogen atom without its single electrom , H+ is essentially a single proton) Thats why there are so many uncombined H atoms in the plating solution.

The hydrogen that is absorbed can be "baked" out again by a heat treatment process. This is often done for plated aircraft parts but my guess is its too expensive a process for plated fishing guides.

Above , Jay Hunt describes the formation of Chromium carbides as an issue with stainless steel. This process is called "sensitization". In stainless steel the Chromium must be in solution in the iron matrix of the steel to effectively prevent corrosion. There , it is evenly distributed and can form a tightly adherent film of Chromium oxide on the surfaces of the Stainless. This Chromium oxide film acts like a protective wrap to reduce corrosion and that is why the metal is called "stainless". Slow cooling after heating above a certain temperature results in the chromium coming out of solution in the iron matrix when it forms the discrete particles of Chromium Carbide. Chromium in solution in the iron matrix can form the protective chrome oxide film but chromium in the form of chromium carbide particles cannot form this protective film on the surface of the metal.. Without the protective Chrome oxide film , the Stainless steel is no longer stainless. It corrodes and often the corrosion is at grain boundaries. Many mechanisms in metals that cause reactions or segregation at grain boundaries can be embrittling.

In this case of the guides , if they are chrome plated , its almost certainly Hydrogen Embrittlement do to the plating process.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2011 02:07PM by Mike White "Saltheart".