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Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: April 10, 2011 01:34PM

Some custom rodbuilders question the performance principles of "micro rods".

Tommy Martin, a winner of the Bassmasters Classic and professional angler, who now markets a personal Signature Series of Micro Bass Rods, made the following statement.

There is one reason alone that makes the use of a micro rod "a no brainer" for tournament fisherman!

Why do you think he made that statement?

The same answer applies to the use of the Microwave guide system for spinning rods.

Sales of the Castaway Microwave guide system have been brisk and comments from initial users are complimentary.

I asked Doug Hannon the inventor of the guide to make an official statement which describes design features and set up measurements that will aid custom builders in the use of the guide system.

Here is the total content of Doug Hannon's email.

To: Bill Stevens - Swampland
...
My savvy on the new age social networking aspects is not good, probably because of both my equipment and me, so I will answer you, and ask you to post in my name and let me know how the response is.

Here is what I have to say:

First know that I started working with the MicroWave concept back in the1980's, and the process of invention goes slowly for me, because I rely on a lot of tedious prototyping and encumbered further by being a "Dreamer". I worked all the way from sets of 5 inter-related rings down to the present two. I found the distance between the primary stripper and the exit guide ring, not the actual number of rings involved in getting in-and-out, to be critical to casting distance. Once through the eye of the needle, nothing else seemed to matter, except to aesthetically align the transition guides for a relatively gentle transit of the line to the rod blank. I settled on a high frame 30 mm stripper with the secondary ring a distance of 8 mm in front of the primary and a secondary-exit ring size of 8 mm. Any more primary-to-secondary separation started to compromise the casting distance, by creating ballooning (instead of draw tight straight as seen in the high speed photos) of the line between the primary and secondary rings. I even made a snap-in silver insert to the 8 mm secondary and tried hole sizes down to a tiny and scary 1.5 mm, with no loss in distance. This is because the line is pulled (not pushed) through the secondary, and any hole large enough to feed the line works. Solution: 8 mm, which is small enough so that centrifugal component can't reform a helix and fight the pull of the lure, yet small enough not to scare @#$%& out of the whacko-fanatics that we all know exist among us anglers.

It is important to know that, while conventional guides produced numerous reformations of the helix wave, it is only those down-rod of the first stripper guide that make any difference. This is why you will feel virtually none of the distance-robbing line slap, when casting a MicroWave. A helix is basically a centrifugal animal, much like the difference between a tornado and a straight line wind. The helix will try to expand and can only be held in by the linear or axial (no centrifugal here) force of the cast. Without this, it would exceed "escape velocity" and expand infinitely. To expand, it must get more line, but to get it between the MicroWave stripper and the spool face is easy, as it can take it from the zero resistance open spool and doesn't need to pull back on your cast. Obviously we then need to bring the MicroWave a little closer to the spool face than normal and use a high frame to preclude this unchecked expansions from causing rod slap. This principle of MicroWave is what makes it really cool, in that the first helix coming off the spool face has no effect on your cast. Like the tornado, when it touches down is when it cranks in and starts to cause real damage. It is only after the helix grounds itself and grabs traction with the first guide that it completes contact with the guide system and can then pull back on your cast, but MicroWave is open ended and allows the line to be pulled through, not crammed into the guides, virtually eliminating friction. This is very easy to see on the Castaway Rods web site, with the high speed camera comparison I provided of MicroWave to Fuji Concept on the same blank, line, and reel, with both lines tied at the same time to the same projectile for a true side-by-side comparison. It literally represents two casts happening at the same time under identical circumstances with controll of all variables.

This is what I have found to be and know, and is why the MicroWave is so versatile and not saddled by the technical specificities and limitations of other micro guide systems involving spinning. The first 30 mm/8 mm model we came out with is usually intended for use on a 2000-4000 size reel. I find that the guide is really well behaved at a distance of approximately 10 times the diameter of the front spool face with the spool oscillated fully forward. This was an observation given me by Larry Dahlberg, who brings his own brand of insight to our sport. That would be about 20 inches, and it is important that the frame of the guide be bent backward such that the ring is as close to parallel to the front of the spool face as possible, so that the secondary ring remains centered relative to the line represented by the axis of the spool shaft. This bias has been place into the manufacture of the guide, and they are not, as are many modern guides designed to present a forward-leaning, elliptical profile to the spool face. I place the 7 mm transition guide approximately 50% further out, or about at 30 inches. Since everything is being pulled at this point, it really doesn't matter, but is seems to make a relatively smooth and pleasing transitional flow of the line.

For smaller tackle, there is coming a 24 mm/6 mm model, as wall as double foot 40 mm/10 mm and a killer surf model in 50 mm/12 mm that makes casts way out past 150 meters possible. A European carp rod model is being designed on the 50 mm model, construed to handle all the in-line tackle components involved in that fishing style.

As to distance, promises would be futile. It would like promising a man that you could put a Jarrett rifle (will put 5 five rounds on a nickel at 100 yards) in his hands and represent that he will be able to hit a nickel with any consistency at that distance. Distance is in the caster as well as the equipment. I know that, for the caster I am, I have a 7 foot medium Castaway MicroWave, a 3000 WaveSpin reel, spooled with Berkeley Fireline Crystal measured at 28 pound break, and I can consistently cast a 1/2 ounce bell sinker between 68 and 72 yards...too far for me to work my 5/8 ounce top water lures.

Doug Hannon

Now the answer Tommy Martin's statement.

Lighter tipped fishing rods - more sensitive!

Reduction of "wind knots" and line tangle.

More productive lure time in water!

More fish in boat

Bigger pay check

Same for Microwave guide on spinning rod.

Available now: [www.swamplandtackle.com]

If you would like to arrange for a personal consultation with Doug Hannon please use the Contact Us Link on The Swampland site. Maximum benefits are derived with incorporation of the Wave Spin Reel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2011 01:48PM by Bill Stevens.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 10, 2011 02:42PM

Whether or not you can gain distance with the guide depends on where you're starting from. As the person who has worked with the concept longer than Doug Hannon, I know that it works and provides a very smooth and quiet line flow (under most conditions with reasonably light and supple line) but this does not automatically result in greater distance.

Guide systems that are well thought out and well implemented generally provide a host of positive benefits, distance being only one among them. However, if the ultimate goal is simply distance, there is one single overwhelming factor that trumps any and all else - the rod must match the lure weight being thrown, or vice versa. A well matched rod and lure weight combination with a terrible guide system will still outcast a poorly match rod and lure weight combination with a great guide system.

.................

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: April 10, 2011 07:27PM

Tom thank you for acknowledging that the Microwave guide works.

Anglers have accepted the micro concept for casting rods - market in a growth mode..

Many anglers who require task specific rods requiring spinning reels now desire to use spinning rods utilizing micro running guides.

The M$M threads clearly define the problems associated with building a spinning rod that will work under various diameter reel spools, line type and lure weights using existing components.

Really not an easy task when the reel, line and lure weight are angler selected after rod purchase..

The original Castaway marketing goal was to come to market with an exclusive/protected component to be used to build a functional task specific spinning rod utilizing micro running guides that could be sold in retail stores.

The vast majority of existing production spinning rods ulilize Cone of Flight guide configuration.

Less line tangle, fewer wind knots and a very smooth and as you say "quiet" line flow" resulting in more lure time in the water are attainable goals to meet the needs of the users..

Castaway has an edge on the existing spinning rod production market.

I am glad they chose to allow Swampland to sell this component to custom builders.

Enough of the Wavespin Guides are now in the hands of custom builders who use this forum to provide an adequate data base for evaluation.

Swampland urges all the purchasers of the Microwave guide to report experiences on this forum.

I am sure we will have honest appraisals in the very near future.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2011 07:21PM by Bill Stevens.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Todd Badgley (---.sub-75-223-14.myvzw.com)
Date: April 11, 2011 04:10PM

Bill -

My own problem with the Microwave guide is in my ability to get them before they are sold out of someone's pocket. You travel across country to the ICRBE, you ask very nicely for the guides, arrive early and purchase all but the kitchen sink, and at the end of the day all the guides, and your own special stash, are gone! Maybe this week I'll be able to wrestle some away from your cohort. I have a promise of boiled crawfish and Microwaves. I'm only sure of the crawfish..... 1 out of 2 ain't too bad, though.

Todd

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: April 11, 2011 07:28PM

Todd if you eat mudbugs and boudin he will ask for you to wrap 10 rods before you leave!

Food will be good!

Out wrapping fees suck!

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: John Sams (---.listmail.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 08:38AM

They said the Wavespin reel would add distance to your cast. I bought one and it did not add any distance at all. No difference and I measured closely on a number of cast sets.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 09:56AM

John here is information related to your post.

Official Public Claim Of Wave Spin Reel

"The only reel brand in the world that is "GUARANTEED TANGLE FREE"

Patented Design by Doug Hannon "The Bass Professor"

Official Reels of Walt Disney World's Guided Fishing Excursions"

Field & Stream" Best of The Best Award"

Please do not confuse the Microwave Spinning Rod Guide with the Wave Spin Reel - entirely different.

We will give you a 50 percent discount along with the free shipping on a Microwave Guide set if you would agree to test it with the Wave Spin reel you now have.

The demonstration rod used at the ICRBE was a Castaway production Micro Wave Rod with a Wave Spin reel -

The ressults were highly acceptable by all who test casted - there were no direct comparisons of distance casting -

The guide set is listed under guides on the Swampland Site.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: John Sams (---.listmail.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 10:59AM

Here is what it really says---- UP TO A 30% INCREASE IN CASTING DISTANCE!. That is for the reel. I have no idea about the guide. But I got no extra distance over my reguilar Daiwa spin reels in the same size.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 12, 2011 11:08AM

John,

You've been taken in by a bit of clever marketing. Note that in your own quote, which I believe is indeed part of their advertising for the reel, the words "Up To." In other words, they are not claiming that you will definitely get a 30% increase in distance, nor even any increase at all. They are simply claiming that you might get an increase and by perhaps as much as 30%. If you got no increase at all, it's still not contrary to their marketing claim. Read those words again and give them some thought.

How much increase you could expect to achieve with the reel or the guide, depends on what you're using now. If you're using a cane pole with 4 guides and some sort of antiquated reel, then you may well get that 30% increase. If you're already using a good system with good equipment, you may not get any increase.

The claims they have made for the reel and the guide do not promise an increase in distance - they only state that you may get an increase. There is a difference.

.......................

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Pedro Gomez (---.mia.bellsouth.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 01:25PM

I found the following advertizing statements on their website. In their own words:

"With my WaveSpinâ„¢ reel, you'll have the ability to cast farther than traditional spinning reels due to low friction as the line comes off the spool. And since it does not offload loops, it can be filled to a higher capacity, guaranteeing even longer casts."

"Exclusive "WaveSpinâ„¢" Spool For Longer Casts."

If you read the above statements closely you will see that they do not offer any other reel's make or model for comparison. I am certain that all of my mid to high end Shimano & Daiwa reels will cast further than this sub $100 reel. what's even more it says that you will have the "ability to cast further" which as Tom previously pointed it doesn't really guarantee longer casts.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 12, 2011 03:40PM

Since there are no moving parts involved with the actual cast on a spinning reel, it's hard to make one that somehow casts better or further than another. Once the bail is open you're simply pulling line off a spool. So now it's just a matter of spool diameter, width, etc. None of which has much to do with how much the reel costs. It's no mean feat for a $20 spinning reel to cast just as far as a $200 spinning reel.

I know some folks that own Wavespin reels, and while I've never had any trouble with loops, these folks have and they have told me that they feel the sharktooth spool lip does indeed cut down or even eliminate these loops - a big plus as far as they're concerned. As far as the reel itself enabling a longer cast, well...

...................

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Pedro Gomez (---.mia.bellsouth.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 03:58PM

Tom, I totally understand what you're saying but I honestly feel that the spool design or spool lip material can definitely help a reel's casting distance as I have found this to be the case with Shimano's Propulsion spool lip design [www.shimano.com]. I own both versions and the current models do cast further when using the same rod, line and casting weight, at least this has been my personal experience with these reels. Thanks

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 12, 2011 04:06PM

I wouldn't doubt you on that - a smoother or different shaped lip might help a bit, but even then, if you film the line coming off a reel spool, during much of the cast the line isn't more than barely touching the spool lip - it tends to billow out beyond it a bit. But I'll take your word on the reels you've tested on the same rod.

All these little things can make little differences, but if the issue is simply distance, there is one factor that counts more than anything else - matching the lure weight and the rod power. At the 2010 Expo, Chris Linville won the overall distance event (spinning outfit) with a rod featuring a plain old Cone of Flight system. His reel wasn't an expensive model, at least as far as I recall. But what stands out in my mind is that he didn't put nearly as much effort into his cast as most of the others did. His rod was easily and fully loaded by the casting weight - and that makes more difference than anything else.

...............

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Ken Finch (---.orlando-03rh16rt-04rh15rt.fl.dial-access.att.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 04:40PM

Actually what the advertising says from Swamplands site is this- “increases casting distance dramatically over traditional spinning rods.”

So it depends on what you consider a “traditional spinning rod.” As a custom rod builder I don’t think the NGC could be considered a traditional guide system. Cone of Flight, yes. But not any of the better systems to come along in the past decade. That’s the play on words to be aware of.

At $23 I might choose to go instead with something like Tom did on the two PB Minima guides. You could achieve the same thing at less cost that way. By turning the second guide around to face the first you could get the second ring as close to the first as you want. Something to try and much cheaper, but I’ll bet the Microwave guide does end up having some good sales appeal to customers if you use it to your advantage.

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 12, 2011 04:49PM

As with so many things in custom rod building, the best way to find out is to try it for yourself and see what you think. Be objective and when making comparisons use the same reel, line and rod blank (using the same blank, not just the same model blank is important). A $23 investment isn't much if you're truly interested in this guide and/or the concept.

............

Ken,

You can indeed swap the second guide around if you want to experiment with the distance between the two rings. Have fun.

...............

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: bill boettcher (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: April 12, 2011 08:44PM

I do not have money to buy every thing that comes out as - the new - So I will wait to here what people say if this guide works

Bill - willierods.com

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Re: Wavespin Guide Information From The Inventor
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 13, 2011 09:22AM

Bill,

You know about my experiments in the past with this concept - I believe we have spoken about it several times. It certainly works. Now to what extent it works and whether or not you or your customers would receive any benefit from it, about all you can do is buy one and try it. Waiting on feedback is a good thing sometimes, but you have to get past the positive reports that are fueled by "new product excitement" and past the negative reviews that are fueled by pessimism of anything new or different. That's why buying one and trying it yourself is the very best way to find out if it's something you wish to pursue further. You've certainly been around long enough to easily be able to tell if it's worthwhile for you or not. If you try one, report back.

...............

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