Does someone can explain the difference or similarities between these two materials.
Thanks
PS
Maybe some answers from the company AMTAC, (Darrin H.)

Hi Dusan,

Not sure exactly what information your looking for, but both rings are high grade ceramic inserts well suited for braided and monofilament fishing lines. I can't speak to what the Alconite is but the Duralite is an Aluminum Oxide base. Both are highly polished and most likely close in Vickers hardness, Alconite most likely being a bit harder though. Duralite is a shiny dark greyish ring while the Alconite tends to be more of a shiny black. I just did a quick price comparison and our Ring Lock Duralites are less expensive then similar Alconite guides. (this does not apply to Fuji's Y frame / AT's A-Frame since the A-Frame is the Ring Lock style and the Y Frame is a traditional stamped frame style making them apples to oranges)

Hope this provided some answers, if not feel free to contact me any time.

Best Regards,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company
(866)516-1750

What about weight in similar frames?

Recently, I have begun to wonder if discussions of a guide's ring material serves any useful purpose. Of course, all the rods I build are for freshwater fishing (mostly smallmouth bass), so that has to be considered. While I am sure that there are measurable differences between Hialoy and Hardloy, on one end, and SiC, on the other, I also suspect that it really doesn't make much difference. For those that can remember shopping for high end stereo equipment in the 70's and 80's, there was always a salesman that could quote all the performance characteristics and tell you of the significant advantages of one piece of equipment over another. And, I'm sure he was right, however, the cat and the dog were the only ones in the house that could actually hear the differences. I suspect that the ring material isn't a major factor in a guide's performance. I am unsure of any measurable weight advantages one has over the other. I suspect the typical angler would be hard pressed to wear out any of today's ceramic rings, even with braid. I am not convinced that the guy who is on the water 200 days per year (either lucky in business or unlucky in love) can wear them out.

More important concerns to me are the durability of the ring, and, by that, I mean the likelihood that it might break. Just because it is very hard does not mean it isn't more brittle. Also, how likely is it to pop out of the frame? That seems a more likely failure than any of which I am aware. Finally, just for the sake of full disclosure, the last set of guides I bought had zirconium rings. I didn't get them because of their hardness. I bought them because they were blue. (Sounds like a girlie reason for buying a car, but there it is.)

Regardless, it seems to me that size and frame material are more likely variables that should be considered before ring material.
Slainte,
Hunter

From ghoulies and ghosties,
and long leggedy beasties,
and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord deliver us!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2011 01:38PM by Hunter Armstrong.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but the question I have for Darrin is--What is the difference between the Nanolite, Duralite and Halide in terms of durability and weight? It looks like the Nanolite and the Duralite are Ringlock and the Halide is not.
Bill

We really aren’t in a position to do a direct comparison of Duralite to Alconite but I can give you some information. Alconite is an Aluminum Oxide “composite” that Fuji prefers we not say much about. We can say that there are 3 or 4 other materials in it that give it the specific properties Fuji was searching for. The final formula worked out pretty well. Probably the most important attribute was overall strength. Both hardness and compression were so good Fuji was able to pare down the diameter to the point where it maintained needed strength and still wound up 7% lighter than SiC in a comparable frame. As far as we know it’s still the thinnest ceramic ring out there and yet, very strong. It takes on a rich, jet black color when polished, and is very close in final polish to SiC, which further reduces abrasion and heat build up. Alconite is primarily available in Concept guides, with the one exception being the “Y” with stamped frame. All others are deep pressed rings, which Fuji developed to enhance the overall performance of many of its guides.

I realize this is not “head-to-head” with Duralite, but maybe it will help.

Thanks,

Jim Ising
Anglers Resource

Jim, not to have the thread go in a different direction, but I swear I have printed material that states the "7% lighter than SIC " didn't apply to Fuji's own SIC? Or is that not the case?

I do not mean to be argumenatative but it seems to me that the terms Nanolite, Alconite and Duralite are all just advertising terms that are like many advertising terms that are designed to mislead. Why don't the manufactureers just call the guide inserts what they are, zerconium, aluminum oxide, silicon carbide or whatever they are. There are different grades of these materials but the characteristics of a manufacturers guide inserts can be honestly described in their advertising and no one has to be mislead.

Hunter,

Well spoken!

Joe

Emory Harry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not mean to be argumenatative but it seems to
> me that the terms Nanolite, Alconite and Duralite
> are all just advertising terms that are like many
> advertising terms that are designed to mislead.
> Why don't the manufactureers just call the guide
> inserts what they are, zerconium, aluminum oxide,
> silicon carbide or whatever they are. There are
> different grades of these materials but the
> characteristics of a manufacturers guide inserts
> can be honestly described in their advertising and
> no one has to be mislead.

Once a marketing professional has, in his or her possession, a proprietary material to sell, he, or she, is going to coin a proprietary name with which to sell it. The sun will rise in the West before this practice ceases to be, regardless of how stupid or meaningless the name. Of course, the pharmaceutical industry eclipses all others as they have long represented the apex in this regard!:)
Slainte,
Hunter

From ghoulies and ghosties,
and long leggedy beasties,
and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord deliver us!

Such is the pity but you can not believe every thing.
Most if not all is about Bottom Line -Profit

Bill - willierods.com

Hi again,

Good points and questions,,,,,

Cleison- although it's been quite awhile since I weighed all the guides and don't have the data readily available, I recall the Duralites being slightly heavier then Alconites and our Nanolites being slightly lighter however the differences were not extreme. In fact different size guides matched differently and those that were close were grains apart. If I averaged guides per set I would have enough difference to note in marketing as a small percentage but if the set changed so would the results. Glue, coating, and ground feet also tipping the scales.....

Hunter- I tend to agree with you about measurable difference in performance of rings. While testing might prove advantages in longevity (especially monofilament line life), I am not sure it could be realized by an individual in the field. Most ceramics hard or less hard, expensive or not, are perfectly capable of the desired performance. Durability on the other hand is key, "Deep Press", "Ring Lock" etc. are all examples of improvements in securing ceramic rings into the metal frames. Specific ceramics themselves also have advantages and disadvantages whether in manufacturing or in the field. Weaker rings could break when pressure-fit into a metal frame or may break on a rod dropped on the ground and so on. And similar to Jim's point regarding Fuji's Alconite, our Nanolite offers us a ring that is extremely hard, highly polished and strong enough to reduce the size/weight without sacrificing durability in the manufacturing process or in practical use. Also girlie reason or not, colored rings market very well but the Zirconium/Zirconias is chosen due to strength and the ability to be PVD coated. For the record I love the the colored rings.

William (Bill)- the Halide & Duralite are both Aluminum Oxide rings but the Duralite is only used in the Ring Lock frames. Nanolite is harder and more durable which is why we are able to offer a thinner ring to reduce weight without worrying about weakening the ceramic. Nanolite is the top of our line however we do offer PVD coated Nanolite & Zirconia rings.

Emory- you are correct these terms being used for marketing. They also denote as Hunter suggested a proprietary name noted by Jim's comment to Alconite being Aluminum Oxide plus 3 or 4 other materials. This makes it impossible for us or anyone else to offer the exact same ring. If we were to suggest that our Aluminum Oxide was the same by calling them both Aluminum Oxide, "misleading" would then be a more applicable. The fact is that there could be several versions any Aluminum Oxide based material due to material vendor/manufacturers adding anything to economize, color or improve a ring.

Bill- true enough about the bottom line but "profit" in this business is hard to come by for sure. After 30 years in the fishing industry I can't believe I am not rich yet?? Although I have managed to survive, a component profiteer I'm not. Should have gone into pharmaceuticals....

Best Regards,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

Every thing is computers now a days Shut down the net and the WORLD STOPS running - That is sure. Planes do not fly with out them.

More money it them if you have the ability to use it.

Your building a fishing rod - not a rocket ship. Keep over thinking this and you will get a brain hurt.

Bill - willierods.com

Bruce Vetre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jim, not to have the thread go in a different
> direction, but I swear I have printed material
> that states the "7% lighter than SIC " didn't
> apply to Fuji's own SIC? Or is that not the case?

Bruce: I'm working from information directly from Fuji. It could be wrong I suppose, but they always try to compare themselves to other products in their line. I'll check. UPDATE: I checked and the info I was referring to says 7% lighter than "other" SiC rings. I'm still not sure exactly what that means but I did find additional info referring to specific gravity and Alconite is a denser material than SiC. It's the smaller ring diameter that saves the weight. My apologies, Fuji doesn't usually mention "other" products.

Hunter is exactly right! When somebody (Fuji) takes a plain old Aluminum Oxide ring and changes it to the point where it moves up to be second only to SiC in performance every marketing man worth his salt is going to call that something new. New names aren't designed to mislead, what Fuji ultimately created was a lot different than Aluminum Oxide and it didn't have a name...enter the marketing guy. It's a tough world out there. If we can't get you guys to notice our stuff we're in trouble. I can't defend it, that's just the way it is.

Good points Jim.

Bruce- I do remember wondering about that myself but came to the conclusion that Fuji meant their own SiC where the ring is thicker then an Alconite so the reduction in weight had to be a result of less material which Jim just explained. I remember this because Pac Bay had a "thin" SiC ring which was developed for a TiC coated guide used in the introduction of G. Loomis's GLX series in the early to mid '90's. At the time it was thought to be the lightest SiC guide available and that thin ring could fall into that "other" SiC category.

Funny what one remembers..

Best Regards,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

I have been around salt water fishing rods since the 60's. For many years there were only a couple/few companies that made a guide that would last. Given the cost/labor to replace and re-wrap every guide it was false economy to use any other brands. I am glad to say that is no longer the case IMHO.

I may be kidding myself but I feel certain that I can tell the difference between a fuji mnsg and a cheap aluminum oxide, leave alone a chrome ring boat guide. It probably has something to do with the waters I fish. Our fish aren't big but they are mighty fast and we always tended towards lighter tackle. Understand I'm talking about past experiences when mono ruled.

Now I have not tried them all. Heck I will probably never tried any of the rings/frames in fancy colors or with coatings because I don't trust them not to corrode! All that said I would encourage the salt water guys to give the ringlock/nanolite line a try. Ditto on the alps in 316. And yes you might have to do a little more prep work. If we all bought more I'm sure they would have them perfect in no time:)

You know what I'd like to see? Good dimensional data on guides. I think a neat marketing idea would be to offer a "layout" kit. The guides could even be non-functional. They only need to handle a static test and be the same physical size in all regards. Given the price of a large titanium spinning guide (and shipping for a single one) it stinks to start setting up a rod and see you need a different size!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I just asked ... :-)
I have not suggested that I get so many helpful answers. First of all would like to thank: Darrin, Jim ... Russell.
All responses and discussions were taking place at a high level, that could be expected from people where "rod building" has a long tradition, and where is, after all, and origin.
Once again, greetings to all participants on this subject and I expect that the talks between one of a perspective company from Serbia and Darrin, take place at a higher level, through Mr. Daniels Company: Angler Pro AB.
All the best
Dusan