Hi all, been searching the archives for days now and I'm sure what i'm having trouble with is in here somewhere, so rather spend more and more time looking, thought id just ask....applying 2nd coat epoxy, all good, then a few minutes later, a dimple appears, then another, then another and so-on... not a bubble bursting . and as it cures it gets bigger, last night i thought if it happens again i would keep brushing it until it stopped seperating from the 1st coat. after 50mins it finally stayed where it was put.... i cant work it out. it never happens on a guide which is strange, just anywhere for the first 4-6 inches up from the fore grip....can anyone enlighten me on this gremlin.?? and how i kill it dead....
thanks.
Owen.....
(Australia)
cheers.

Is it a bubble or fish eye? You may have some kind of contamination. To me it sounds fish eye, if so it could have been cause by Silicone, oils left on the blank or oils from your hands. Just a thought. Can you take a picture and send it

Good Wraps Bob

Hi Bob, havent got a good camera here, it starts as small as a pin hole and it spreads out from there, i let 1 dry the other dry and it finished the size of a finger nail, (looks like something has taken a "smooth" bite out of the epoxy......(hope its not running around in my house.) lmao......
I'm a little bit convinced that it is some kind of contaminant as well.....but why nearly always in the same area.? gunna cover the finished wraps with Gladwrap next time so i dont even touch anything.....process of elimination i spose..
thanks Bob.

Owen,
It might be that the first coat has completely cured, so that the second coat is not bonding as well as it should. If you apply the second coat between 24 and 48 hours later, all should be fine. If you wait longer, then you will need to slightly scuff the first coat, using a Scoth Brite pad or similar.

George Forster
Fort Collins, CO

Thought of that as well George, i was told by an experienced rod building company owner that anytime after 12hrs is fine, so ive been sticking to that,usually 15-20hrs..if i am contaminating it somehow.!! do you know what i could use to run over the 1st coat which would clean these unseen areas.? Alcohol .??
Its driving me spare....... "can wrap like santa claus but stuff it up on the home straight".

Owen,
It's a "fish-eye". Everyone gets them once in awhile. You always have to be aware that one can come up for no apparent reason anytime. So you have to keep inspecting the wrap for first hour, at least. I get rid of them by "scrubbing the area - usually with a knitting needle or other smooth object and "break" or disperse whatever is causing it. Put a drop of fresh finish over the spot if necessary and apply gentle heat to help level. I use a soldering iron and hold, or wave, the iron under the wrap. Or I will hold the iron over the wrap and blow down on the wrap to send gentle heat down to the wrap.

Or you can leave it alone and apply a third thin coat to cover.
Herb I solve the prob

Owen, if you had to keep brushing to get the epoxy to stay where you wanted it for 50 mins i bet that its not really stuck there, it just got too thick to move out of the contamination.
The dried epoxy is sort of floating over it now.
Some common things that have contaminated my epoxy over the years: reel magic, get that on your hands and touch a rod to see if the epoxy is dry and you have big problems. In the air it drifts around and causes issues too.

Pledge furniture polish spray, my wife no longer tries to make my rod wrapping room look pretty any more after that incident.
Cooking oil, especially spray and cook type. A hepa 1700 filter or better now sorts that out for me.
Icy Hot, vicks vapor rub .
You are not alone, your personal contaminant/s just needs to be found then you need to stop getting it onto your work.
Be sure to wash you hands before handling any rod blank right through to when you are finished.
It may be as simple as rubbing your hands on your jeans and picking up fabric softener just before you apply the epoxy.
Good luck.

My wife picked up the fancy wrap bug ..... you would not believe what can happen as a result of hand cream(s). At least one brand (Shiseido) absolutely refuses to be covered - even with color preservers (yes multiple brand attempts). I guess that's why that brand of hand lotion works so well

Owen, do you have a pet in the house. Just by petting your pet or tossing it a treat while working a rod will give you trouble.Like mentioned above wash your hands often. I don't even own a pet, I was just pet sitting for a friend and found out the hard way. Good luck ! <<<<DON>>>>

Owen,
If you never have the problem in the guide area, but only in the butt wrap section. I would suggest that you get in the habit of just scuffing the butt wrap area with scoth brite, between coats. Normally a light scuff will take care of any contamination.

I have to agree with the other posters in that you have some sort of contamination on your rod.

Bottom line, try to wash your hands every 30 minutes to keep your hands absolutely clean and free of oil.

Take care
Roger

At some point in the curing process, a coat of epoxy will harden to the point where it will attempt to repel additional applications of epoxy. I can't say if this is what is happening to you, but any time you plan to apply more than one application of epoxy, you should apply the second just as quickly as you can after the first. As soon as you're able to apply it without undue disturbance from the first (too soft, too wet, etc.) do so. Preferably within 24 hours.

.............

Correct, and the assertions of some that epoxies aren't effected by humidity are most assuredly incorrect! Any amine cured/containing epoxy can and usually will form a blush when cured. This feels waxy when you rub it. More epoxy will not stick to this and even a small amount on the surface will cause fish eyes/cratering, and/or adhesion problems. Curing in cool temps and/or high humidity levels make this blush worse, and can even take place to some degree on epoxies that claim to be "blush free".

[www.huntsman.com]

For this reason, any re-coating on any epoxy is best done before curing, once the previous coat has reached its green or gelled stage. If you are suspicious of an amine blush, it can be removed with warm soapy water, and a mild (white) Scotchbrite pads is even better, but may not always be workable on or around fishing rod guides.

David,

Amine blush requires a specific combination of CO2 and moisture. However, we aren't talking about blush - we were talking about setting and curing times which humidity certainly does not have any effect on.

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Owen Spalding Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all, been searching the archives for days now
> and I'm sure what i'm having trouble with is in
> here somewhere, so rather spend more and more time
> looking, thought id just ask....applying 2nd coat
> epoxy, all good, then a few minutes later, a
> dimple appears, then another, then another and
> so-on... not a bubble bursting . and as it cures
> it gets bigger, last night i thought if it happens
> again i would keep brushing it until it stopped
> seperating from the 1st coat. after 50mins it
> finally stayed where it was put.... i cant work it
> out. it never happens on a guide which is strange,
> just anywhere for the first 4-6 inches up from the
> fore grip....can anyone enlighten me on this
> gremlin.?? and how i kill it dead....
> thanks.
> Owen.....
> (Australia)
> cheers.


Tom, above is the original post. Call me crazy................... I don't see anything mentioned about setting and curing times. Instead I do see someone asking about what sounds like fisheyeing or cratering, as if the surface is contaminated or has a blush.

I put on a new pair of nitrile rubber gloves everytime I do wraps(unless I'm doing demo or practice wraps). never had a problem with fish eyes ever since.

LEGENDARY CREATIONS CUSTOM RODS
Maplewood, MN

Humidity won't cause fisheyes or cratering. Nothing is mentioned about there being condensation on the surface, which I already covered.

[rodbuilding.org]


.........

Again.... neither I or anyone else has said anything about humidity causing fisheyes or cratering or anything about there being condensation on the surface, only that it CAN lead to blushing issues, and THAT can cause the two maladies. Plus, I never said that was the answer here, only one plausible explanation. I don't know how much clearer I can be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 09:22AM by David Sample.

David,

We just discussed all this day before yesterday.

..................

woo up fellow's. had a breakthrough.
Humidity problem.....no way on earth....my son is an industrial painter and they put epoxy on in the rain and i know guys who blow through straws to release bubble's, how much humidity is that putting on wet epoxy..a s***load....no problems at all.....Pets, i know better than to touch anything when wrapping..

I had another 4 of the gremlins today, all within a couple of inches and all in the same area, EXCEPT 1....the most important 1of all, it was on the opposite side to a sticker on the raw blank.
Every other 1 ive had was on the thread.
I have come to the conclusion that yes, it is contamination.
read a post from Herb earlier suggesting a knitting needle or similar to "scrub" or rough up the area through the wet epoxy.......tried it........epoxy just fell back into the cavity. don't ask me what i moved cause i dont know.....I even rubbed the raw blank cavity and it also fixed it ......instantly..

thanks to everyone who posted, all good comments.

cheers.....
Owen.

Rainy days are exceptional periods for finishing wraps with epoxy.

On the issue of contamination, something that can cause contamination and which is often overlooked has to do with perfumes or colognes. I once had customer enter my shop while a rod had wet epoxy on it. He got close to the rod and instantly the finish broke up into hundreds of fisheyes. He was wearing a strong cologne and after doing a little research it turns out that many such perfumes or colognes contain silicone.

There may have been something on the sticker that your brush dragged around to other parts of the rod. This is the type of thing that's hard to diagnose in a forum post. Hopefully you'll get it figured out.

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