Hi Guys,
I have been following this topic most of today. I have read many common sense ideas which we all ought to follow. I have also read what David Sample calls alarmists. As a retired college Chemistry teacher I would echo both sides. One of the first things I learned and what I taught was that you need to know what chemical you need to use and how that chemical must be handled safely. The purpose of MSD Sheets was to allow a person to determine how to handle any given substance. However, the data on MSDS can easily frighten someone who is not familiar with the terms. I have provided a sample of an MSDS for a common substance below:
MSDS
Toxicological Data on Ingredients: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 3000 mg/kg [Rat.]. 4000 mg/kg [Mouse]. DERMAL (LD50): Acute: >10000 mg/kg [Rabbit]. DUST (LC50): Acute: >42000 mg/m 1 hours [Rat].
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast.
Eye Contact:
Check for and remove any contact lenses. In case of contact, immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. Cold water may be used. Get medical attention.
Inhalation:
If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. Get medical attention if symptoms appear.
Ingestion:
Do NOT induce vomiting unless directed to do so by medical personnel. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Loosen tight clothing such as a collar, tie, belt or waistband. Get medical attention if symptoms appear.
Precautions:
Keep locked up. Do not ingest. Do not breathe dust. Avoid contact with eyes. Wear suitable protective clothing. If ingested, seek medical advice immediately and show the container or the label.
Storage: Keep container tightly closed. Keep container in a cool, well-ventilated area. Hygroscopic
Personal Protection:
Splash goggles. Lab coat. Dust respirator. Be sure to use an approved/certified respirator or equivalent. Gloves.
Personal Protection in Case of a Large Spill:
Splash goggles. Full suit. Dust respirator. Boots. Gloves. A self-contained breathing apparatus should be used to avoid inhalation of the product. Suggested protective clothing might not be sufficient; consult a specialist BEFORE handling this product.
Exposure Limits: Not available.
Physical and Chemical Properties
Toxicity to Animals:
WARNING: THE LC50 VALUES HEREUNDER ARE ESTIMATED ON THE BASIS OF A 4-HOUR EXPOSURE. Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 3000 mg/kg [Rat.]. Acute dermal toxicity (LD50): >10000 mg/kg [Rabbit]. Acute toxicity of the dust (LC50): >42000 mg/m3 1 hours [Rat].
Chronic Effects on Humans: MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/ or yeast.
Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans:
Causes adverse reproductive effects in humans (fetotoxicity, abortion, ) by intraplacental route. High intake from occupational exposure may increase risk of TOXEMIA OF PREGNANCY in susceptible women (Bishop,1978).

If you read through this, you will may become worried about using this substance. The above MSDS is for common table salt. You might also google up the MSDS for the following substance: alpha-D-glucopyranosyl-beta-D-fructofuranoside. This rather intimidating name is the proper name for common sugar.

Like Roger, I do use commercially available xylene is a mixture of three different isomers of xylene(AKA ortho, meta, and para dimethylbenzenes). I use to clean brushes when I use PermaGloss and Lumiseal finishes. I do not use it in my workshop located in my basement, but I do use it on our deck during the summer and in my garage with the doors open during inclement weather. I can buy a quart of Xylene for less than the cost of a bottle brush cleaner. I store the used Xylene until the waste chemical disposal office in our county picks up waste chemicals each fall. I also use acetone for other cleaning purposes. None of these are used in my workshop itself. The only solvent I have in my workshop is DNA, which I use for cleaning up any epoxy adhesive or epoxy finish.

The idea that we should not encourage people to use the more dangerous substances is in some ways the safer route due to the danger of misuse, but those who are responsible in their use of materials an make their own decision.

I apologize for the length of this post.

Mike Blomme

"May cause dizziness, headache, watering of eyes, irritation of respiratory tract, irritation to the eyes, drowsiness, nausea, other central nervous system effects, spotted vision, dilation of pupils, and convulsions. "

You get the same results from shot gunning Busch beer.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

If the sarcasm thingy was directed at me, I had no intention of being sarcastic, just truthful. No sarcasm, maliciousness or insult of any kind was meant in any way toward anyone!

Tony Childs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It isn't just the thinners/solvents that are
> dangerous. The results of mixing things like
> Acetone and Epoxy during cleanup make the particle
> sizes small enought to penetrate skin poors, not
> to mention several of the cheap nitrile gloves.

That's a great point to bring up here and one that not too many think about. I know that I did not until somewhat recently, it's what the chemicals do and how they react with other material that has the nasty mystery to it.

For example, hot melt glues are generally thought to be relatively safe in and of themselves. However, me gluing various materials (like foam or plastic) with a glue that hot most likely outgasses something quite toxic from the material I'm using it on. Not even dangerous materials, but mix them with some heat and I have no idea what you get. I rarely mess with solvents unless absolutely necessary for reasons like this, the chemistry is way above my head.

I suspect much of the danger is in cumulative exposures, then you "suddenly" have a problem. I'm kinda in the same boat as you, Tony, but in a much more ambiguous and answerless way. Time to be careful, this hobby is too fun to ditch.

Great info on chemicals that we need to know, thanks.

Thank you Mr. Blomme...Finally someone from industry. Haha got to love NaCl. Maybe they should look up DI water next...

Honestly...I have nevered heard of a rod builder igniting there homes with a vapor trail of acetone or facing death because of chronic exposure to xylene or permagloss.
I've heard of a builder getting Radon poisoning. Oooooh possibly another scare thread for those who think they might be exposed.....

In all seriousness....
I think everyone here is smart enough to open a window when working with anything volatile solutions and keep it away from an open flame (with the exception of flame finishing).
When in doubt wear gloves and goggles. Don't huff it, waft the fumes with your hand to you nose if you are curious about the smell. If you spill it on your skin, 15min shower rinse.
As all my chemistry proffessors said, with the infinite amount of Ph.Ds, "DON'T DRINK IT! AUTOMATIC FAILURE!"
Call poison control.


Ignorance is bliss and many people are happily set in their ways. They will frown upon things which are different and challenges what they "know." - Me....haha

Alarmists - you guys don't get it at all. There are hundreds of people who read these posts, I know for a fact many of them are kids as my friend is 13 and just starting out. When oyu make a post that says "Use Xylene" you are giving out really bad info. Just read down the list of questions on teh forums, and how basic and common sensical the answers are. If you are going to recommend using stuff that can make you sick, when there are many the rproducts which do just as good of a job which won't make you sick - you are giving out bad info which is why the post was started.

I wonder how some of you would feel if in real life a 40 year old told your 13 y/o to use Xylene as a cleaning agent for his rods.

Billy,
Your post really does make sense, and as usual, has excellent information.
But, as is the case with many things, there are certain items that really do a much better job than another item.

Your case is well made. If a substance is used that requires special handling, then it is certainly a good idea that the person using the substance be aware of the special handling required of the product.

It is also true that many of us can go a very long time routinely using products in our every day lives. It may be a cleaning product, it may be a solvent, or a paint.

Then suddenly, out bodies say - ENOUGH Already!!.

The body is saying that it has worked with that particular substance long enough, and is now sensitized to the product. This may be a soap, a cream, a paint, a fume etc. etc. But the bottom line is that many many substances can cause an allergic reaction if used long enough for certain folks. Other folks can work with the same substance for many many more years than the first person and never develop an allergic reaction or suffer any primary or secondary effects.


But, as you and others have pointed out - CAUTION - is the byword when working with any substance. Be aware of its primary and secondary effects on a body and take precautions to minimize any of these effects.

Be safe
Roger

Exposure has a price tag and IMO the price is too high on strong solvents. I don't find them necessary at all. I build plenty of rods using nothing more than DNA and IPA. Considering the long span that we will all most likely be building rods AND being exposed to the various products, I recommend being overly cautious ... which in my case, means leaving the stuff completely alone.

Really it is all about safety measures. I use Xylene almost everyday at work and with the proper engineering controls and ppe it is no problem. It is actually quite mild compared to some of the other Chemicals I work with. The most important thing to remember is that what ever solvent you choose to work with you need to know and follow the instructions for safe use.

A couple of months ago I had a conversation with a coworker (engineer) about wood working. He's 62 years old and is considering retiring because he fears being stricken by illness before he can enjoy retirement. He referenced many field trips during his career where he and coworkers used various solvents as cleaning agents. They'd order in a 55 gallon drum and clean components of the plants our company builds and maintains. There were ten in his group, eight of which are gone - one form or another of cancer, usually located in a major organ.

Yes, this stuff is serious!

Jeff

If any and all solvents were carcinogens then I'd be with you on that, but all solvents aren't carcinogens (water is a solvent too......) , and even when you consider VOCs, they still aren't all guilty. None of the four that I gave MSDS links on are carcinogens, and as I clearly said and the papers prove, DNA is as "bad" as any of the others, if that's how one would like to put it. I know this; I've used them all and xylene and DNA evaporate so slowly that they stick around under my wedding ring and burn. MEK and acetone don't do this to me because they are gone from that area before they can start to be absorbed enough to effect the nerve endings!

I was attempting to bring some perspective to this but it has gotten blown way out of proportion as many things in human interaction are prone to do. I also realize that young people too may read this and any other forum, but since that's the case (they can and do read), they are also capable of reading application or use labels, safety labels and any other warning material that comes with something.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 05:51PM by David Sample.

If it is burning your finger it is absorbed into your skin. Bottom line it is not good for you. I guess you dont wear the proper safety equipment or this wouldn't be an issue. The stuff builds up in your body, that is why you get desensitized to it. But dont worry it will find a place to reside in a vital organ and stop burning your finger. Most people, especially young ones, dont read the dangers or they simply think I`m young I`ll be all right. Mike`s post was meant to help those that dont know about the dangers. Used to be companies had to have a "Right to know" meeting twice a year to inform employees of the dangers and where to find the MSDS sheets. That is when I became aware of dangers. I didn't do on my own as I didn't think it to be a big deal. Not sure if it is still a law to hold the meetings but my employer hasn't had one in over 10 years. I have no idea how a young beginner would learn the effects of the solvents. Thank you Mike for bringing this up. You may have saved someone a life of discomfort and regret.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

"if it is burning your finger it is absorbed into your skin"..................... No kidding? I already said "absorbed enough to effect the nerve endings", which means by default that it has at least gone into the epidermis and is coming in contact with the dermis.

I do wear gloves, but over time even they succumb, and when one does lots of boat painting like I do, they will have a need to use a rag and some type of solvent on occasion to remove various small spots or splatters that are found AFTER the gloves are already off and put away. Driving or riding in a car is WAY more dangerous to life and good health than any of the four VOCs that I mentioned, in momentary contact and in small amounts.

This is starting to get into ego thing!!! I was NOT telling anyone not to use anything. It makes no difference to me is someone chooses to bathe in the stuff IF they know it's risks!!

Yes, driving a car may be more dangerous (as is smoking and probably many other) BUT people are aware of the risks and willingly accept them!!

My whole point was that when we recommend the use of these things, it would be common sense to point out the risks involved. It's a common courtesy!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike, no disrespect was intended to you or anyone else.

As to the ego thing, everyone has an opinion and you are entitled to think what you wish my friend, but I don't like to be missquoted or have things that I said left out and then added back into the conversation later by someone else as if I'm ignorant.

In this whole discourse I've not told, asked or encouraged anyone to use or not to use anything, only that I've used them all for the last 40 years and what I've found worked the best FOR ME for the task in question (or something very similar}. Nothing more, nothing less.

No worries though, I'll post no further on this thread.

DAVID:

Thank you so very much for the post...well said!