I have to build a fly rod for a "friend of a friend", so cheap. Needs to be an off shore rod. This makes it bigger and heavier than I have done before. Can someone give me a guide set recipe or a good starting point. also some blank suggestions.

Thanks, John

JLS Custom Rods
Cassadaga, NY

Sevier saltwater fly blanks are a great value. Less than $40 in either 2 or 4 piece.

Batson has a 9' 12wt in their RX7 line which is a fine blank and a great company behind it.

Not sure how much you want to spend, but as you move towards longer and heavier weight fly rods, the differences in materials begin to shine. If you want a lighter, more efficient fly rod for your friend, which can be important in that length and line weight, then you'll almost certainly want to move to a little higher modulus rod. No need to spend a fortune, but I'd look at moving up the scale just a tad. It will result in a better performing rod and one that's more comfortable to use over a long day. What doesn't make a lot of difference in a small stream trout fly rod can make a whale of a difference in a big water, large fish rod.

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I would second Batson. they are top notch!

Kevin Gross
Many men will spend their whole life wondering if they made a difference. Marines dont have that problem - Ronald Regan

I agree with Tom re materials for a 12wt - for any saltwater rod for that matter. I just bot a Gatti 8'6" #11 that can easily be uplined with a #12 line. Great blank - but a little heavy because it is beefy.
If you want lighter I would go with the CTS 8"6" in the MX line to make it more castable. 9' in a #12 rod is too much of a brute to cast all day and would be better as an off-shore rod anyway. They generally have the same tip and butt diameters and that makes for a faster taper which would also be better for off-shore.
Herb

I completely agree with Tom here. A mid modulus fly rod at those weights can feel incredibly heavy and cumbersum. Imagine youre forearm exorbing the deeper bending heavier (low modulus) of a 12wt rod for 8 hours. Brutal!! Go high end.... For me, even a 5wt bamboo hurts after an 8 hour day.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2010 10:55AM by Larry Damore.

I think I'd first find out how the friend intends to fish it. If he's going to toss a fly after dragging trolling teasers and then then drop the fly back for sailfish or swords (looking for that IGFA fly rod record) then he will not be casting it and weight of the rod will matter little but stoutness will come into play. Batson Enterprises, American Tackle, Mudhole (MHX) all are reasonably priced and 'value for the dollar'. The Gatti is a terrific blank - a little pricey but is well worth the $$

John,
You might consider a spinning or casting rod blank in the 7'-8' length.
Assume
7'6" IM7 blank, Medium, mod fast action
Butt size approx .420
Tip size 5.5
Mid blank dia approx .280
Heavy build
9 guides
Top 3 guides #3 Titanium single foot
Next 2 guides #4 double foot snake
Next 2 guides #6 double foot snake
Followed by 2 Alox #12 and #16 double foot
These should help you constrain your budget and provide better fish fighting with the shorter length.
Casting should also be easier if He's blind casting and needs to make a lot of casts.

Eugene Moore

Eugene I am curious about why you recommend so many guide sizes. After taping some up and looking at the line path I am convinced that using FEWER sizes creates a much straighter line path. What you have listed here is more of a stair step erractic path. Tape them up both ways and see for yourself. I have convinced myself that all these sizes are for the fisherman, not the line or the rod. I now use only TWO guides sizes on all the fly rods I build unless I use two ceramics on the butt, then I end up using a total of three sizes. But all the snakes will be the same size. It gives a much smoother line flow than when you put several different sizes on the rod. Takes weight off the upper portion of the rod too.

Richard,
I don't build rods by "looking" at the line path on a straight line static rod.
While the rod is working it is seldom straight or stationary.
My guide size and placement strategy are based on dynamic principles of guide train inertia based on guide location from the fulcrum. These were then field tested by a broad group of anglers both on and off the water.
Small ID guides are great at increasing rod performance by reducing inertia but are terrible at line mending and shooting when used in the butt area of the rod. Just too much drag.
Large ID guides are great at reducing drag for line mending and shooting but at a penalty of increased inertia increasing parasitic losses resulting in slower blank performance and increased output energy from the angler for the same casting distance.
I've built rods using single guide sizes, both large and small, in varying numbers.
My field testing showed increased casting distance, for the same relative effort, and easier line handling for casters at all levels by using a staggered guide layout.
I'm a proficient caster, but the group of people I've used for testing has ranged from 12 year old first timers to factory reps.
The final proof is in the actual casting and what I use has worked for a very broad group of casters.
Maybe they're just being polite, but I've "converted" several associate builders to my principles.
They just cast easier, further and more accurately, or so I'm told.
That to me is a win win scenario, so I stick with it until such time as I find something that's measurably better.

Eugene Moore

Eugene, it has nothing to do with guide size, but with numbers of different sizes guides. I consider myself fairly adept at fly casting. I can empty the spool of fly line on most of my rods with only moderate effort. What I have found is completely opposite what you state here. What you call "your" approach is nothing more than the old school standard practice of using every guide size available under the assumption that this somehow makes a more gradual progression. We all bought into it for many years. But the reality is that It creates a set of stairs and this is very evident when the rod is under load. With fewer sizes the line moves through more of a smooth funnel arrangement for more distance, better rod recovery and better balance.

Richard,
I appreciate you correcting my error.
Maybe you should tell Sage, Winston, St Croix and Thomas and Thomas they too are using far too many different size guides.
Build 'em the way you want but I'll follow the lead of the folks who design, test and build thousands per week.

Eugene Moore

I will never believe that the commercial companies put the time into guide system testing that custom rod builders do. I have yet to see a single one implement the New Guide Concept correctly. They just stick on a set of guides without any thought to the line path whatsoever. When the day comes that I cannot build a better rod than Sage, Winston, etc., etc., I'll give up custom rod building.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2011 10:27AM by Moderator.

Eugene, if you believe that the companies you mention are using cutting edge, state of the art guide trains, well........ I rest my case. Thanks for the discourse.

I think getting the line close to and keeping it close to the blank without touching the blank is the way to go. Therefore fewer sizes and smaller sizes work better. The new guides on the market (single foots) add very little to the rod blank overall weight

You'd be amazed at what the commercial makers don't put much time into. One area regards line guides. Most buy guide sets and use what they're sent.

Some manufacturers do put more time in on this sort of thing, but not by their own tests. It's fairly common that I'll get a call from a company asking "what are the custom builders using?" In the past month alone, I've had one company call ask how to utilize "micro guides" on a new rod series they're planning and another called and asked about fly rod guide sizing. Don't think they don't keep an eye on what the custom builders are doing - almost every commercial rod company in the U.S. subscribes to RodMaker Magazine. More than a few are registered on this forum and check in almost daily. Not hard to figure out why.

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