I'm currently rewrapping 2 stand up tuna rods for a freind who runs a part time charter. He asked if I could acid wrap them, never tried it before. I assume you start with the guide closes to the reel on top ( 0 deg) and space the guides so the tip is at 180. Any advice or tricks that anyone has learned doing Acid wraps.

Thanks,

Matt

look at this

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Thanks Barry

If you are using roller guides, All American @#$%& guides are pretty much the only ones designed for this, although I read somewhere that people were using another set of rollers that worked, but it was a mix of brands. For ringed guides, it's not too bad. I am working on one currently with a 25mm stripper guide a few inches off of the foregrip (HBSG style), and a size 12 HNSG a few inches up from the stripper guide, offset around 35 degrees to the left or so, another few inches past that is another HNSG 12 offset around 130 degrees or so, and then 4 HNSG 12's running out to the @#$%& roller tip top. I had it up over 30# of drag with my Avet 50W. The degrees are an approx number, you can use the wheel from @#$%& and the instructions from All American, just remember that with the ringed guides, you don't have to worry as much about the line popping off the roller. The big thing is to make sure the line doesn't hit the blank at all, coming from any side of the reel, under any load, etc.

Hi Matt
Much easier design is " Bumper spiral ". Butt guide is up on say 0 , the next is 90, all running guides to tip are down, 180 from butt guide.
You need to load the rod with the butt guide and running guides.The bumper guide @ 90 is where the line touches the blank.
Use a low profile guide for bumper guide. The running guides and bumper guide can all be the same.
Less guides to mess with , much easier, and very effective method.

Dave
PRRODS

Ditto Dave.

I just built four trolling rods using Amtak Virtus Heavies. 25 stripper at 0 degrees, 12 at 90 degrees, and then 12s at 180 running to the tip with no bumper at all. When I put the rod under load with the guides taped on I found the bumper wasn't needed because the line never touched the blank and transitioned well through the guides. I also have an 11-1/2' surf rod with Amtak Virtus Lights that starts with a 20 at 0, 16 at 90, 12 at 180, then 10s to the tip and didn't feel the need for a bumper on it. Maybe I was just lucky, or the placement was such that the line just never got close enough to the blank to need the bumper. IMO the less complicated the better as long as the line doesn't hit the blank or take a sharp turn. I also have not yet run into the problem of line building up on one side or the other of the reel on retrieve, but they say you can offset the stripper a few degrees to fix that if it happens.

Matt Smith
Greensboro, NC

With rods that flex farther down the blank, the 1 guide at 90 degrees may cause a failure at higher drag pressures due to the feet pushing into the blank on the short side of the blank oval. A few guys I spoke with have snapped rods like this with over 30# of drag. I used to do most of my rods like this and haven't had an issue with breakage yet, but I switched over to the 2 guide transition to be on the safe side unless the rod doesn't flex at that point..

Gents,

Thank you for all the help and advice. After some static tests I decided to go with the butt guide @ 0, second guide @60, 3rd @ 120 and the rest at 180. Some of the other combinations I tried did make the line bump the rod under high press. Given that these are for a charter boat that spends a lot of time @ the canyons they will see serious abuse. Especially at night. The guides were literraly ready to fall off from abuse when I stripped them off to refinish.

I purposesly only stripped one rod and did comparison static test with the original configiration next to the spiral wrap. I was pleasantly surprised at the difference under a basic static test.


I'm currently building myself a jigging rod for codfishing using a Batson SU blank cut to 7', so I will experiment with the spacing and degrees. I'm looking froward to trying it and see if it's easier on the back. Either way it gives a reason to do some winter codfishing.

Thanks again,

Tight Lines

Timothy,

I would have to call your guys out - no way that a guide at 90 degrees is going to push into the wall of the blank and cause any damage. For years rods have been built with all guides on top - and the butt guide takes the full load directly onto the blank. Furthermore, the side load of a 90 degree bumper will never come close to what is being placed on any guide on top of the butt section of the rod. I can say with confidence that "it ain't happening." They may be breaking rods in the butt area (which is where they should break when overloaded) but it has nothing to do with a bumper guide.

Load up such a rod to near full load and use a spring scale to measure the line pressure at the butt guide, then measure the same pressure against the rod at the bumper guide. The two are not even remotely close and the pressure at the bumper guide is only slight at best.

They may be sincere, but they're very badly mistaken and making an assumption that is baseless.

...............

Tom,

Thank you for the clairification.

One question, since the butt guide is taking all the stress. Should I double wrap that guide. I'm using an underwrap, but would you recomend a double wrap over the guide.

Only if it's a very heavy duty rod battling extremely large fish. But even then, that area isn't going to be overly affected by the slight additional weight of a double wrap. If it makes you feel more confident, do it.

.................

imake my 10degs (size 20) 2n one is a bumper guide 90degs (size 10) 3 one is 170 degs(size16) all the rest at 180degs size 12


under rap and doubble rap all guides with A thread.or D thread


eddie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2010 09:31AM by Edward Woltering.

Tom, the guys I spoke with about it often fish well over 30# of drag on tuna rods. It wasn't that the guide penetrated into the wall of the blank physically, but something about different types of Torque and how the single bumper guide placed on the short side of the oval made a stress point there from the forces acting on it. IIRC, the issue was found with the newer, thinner walled blanks that are very parabolic and flex a lot down through the foregrip. Many of the blanks really oval out a lot and it was something about the pressure on the short side of the oval while pressure was applied on the long sides of the oval. It doesn't happen all that often, but a few of the more hardcore guys have had it happen to them with guides at the 90 degree as a bumper, but hasn't happened with a 2 guide transition.

Why would there be a stress point there? Why would there be any torque there? If they're setting it up properly, there is no side pressure on that guide - it's not a transition guide. There are no transition guides on the Simple Spiral.

Pressure on the short side of the oval? The force on the Bumper guide, is straight back onto the blank and is extremely slight. Try it for yourself with a spring scale and you'll be amazed at just how little we're talking - a pound or two maximum. And the guide wrap itself isn't changing the ability of the rod to go oval any more than any other guide wrap is.

I've been using that system on stand up rods for two decades and never had the first hint of trouble. There's simply nothing there to give trouble.

They may have had rods break in that area, but it wasn't due to the guide. I'd have to roll my pant legs up before listening to their supposed explanation on this one.

............

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the "Simple or Bumper wrap is based on the formula that the "bumper guide is NOT figured into the guide train. Lay out the guides WITHOUT the bumper guide The butt guide and 1st guide after that (the 1st 180 guide should be 11" or less) Then place the 90 Bumper guide exactly halfway between then.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

That's what I was just thinking.........could it be that these guys are not really using the Simple Spiral and bumper Guide, but instead have wrapped up a spiral with a single 90 degree transition guide?

While there's a big difference between the two, I still doubt the cause of the breakage has anything to do with the particular type spiral used. I strongly suspect that the rods are overloaded (that's where they would break if that were the case) and when they fail the angler looks down, sees the guide in that area and decides the guide or guide position must have caused it.

...............

I'm trying to get more info from the guys to see exactly what it was. I dunno if the rod was set up properly in the first place, maybe the guide had a burr on the bottom that eventually caused the issue. I know I have talked to people who have snapped rods there and other builders looked at it and determined that the single guide was the cause. But I have fished several spiral wrapped rods with the single at 90 w/o any problems, but I would rather be safe than sorry! I have had some of the rods up to and over 40# of drag slipping off of the reel, but I haven't fished at that high of a drag and these guys like locking down the drags. They have been know for snapping a few rods!!

It still sounds to me like they simply overloaded the rods, snapped them, and then decided it must have had something to do with the guide in that location when in reality the rod/s would have broken there regardless.

There is no sound basis for what they are suggesting.

................

Yeah, I dunno if the rods were set up "properly" in a spiral or not, or any other info than the guys broke a few rods with that type of spiral setup. I have built up several with the 1 guide to bump the line off the blank and the gide doesn't load up/down at all and the pressure pushing it back into the blank is minimal like you said, but I also know if you put the 90 degree guide in the middle of the stripper and first 180 guide, it can put some wierd stress on the guide.