I am building my first rod using the "New concept system". This rod is a Batson SB720-4. The blank is a 6' fast action. I am going with the thought that this rod should have 7 guides plus the tip top (6' rod should be 6 guides plus 1) . With the reel I will use, the choker guide should be at 22" from the tip of the rod. I am using Fuji CLAG 6 guides for the choker and running guides. I measured 20" from the face of the reel, and this placed my first Fuji CYAG 20 guide at 41 1/2" from the tip top. I currently have the following guide spaceing on the rod from the tip top: 4 Clag 6 guides spaced at 4 1/2", 10", 15 1/2", and 22". I then go to a CYAG 10 at 27 1/2", a CYAG 12 at 33", and a CYAG 20 at 41 1/2". I have lined the rod, and done a Static test. The first 4 guides look great. There seems to be a big step from the size 6 choker to the next CLAG 10 guide.

I am wondering if I should change the size 10 guide for a size 7 or 8, and move the size 12 guide one size up or down? Should I move the size 20 guide back so the it it 18" from the reel face?

I have never seen a rod set up using this system, and really have no idea what it should look like under static pressure.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Mike Bradfrod
R.M.B. Fishing Rods
Nampa, Idaho

Review the article in the library-it will give you an idea of what it should look like statically.

What is the diameter of your reel's spool? Seems like 20 is a little small for # 1 guide from the reel. Should be 1/2 the diameter or more unless you will be limiting it to very light line.

When I do a rod with the New Concept, I first locate the reel on the blank. Then I place the #1 choker guide 27X from the reel face. Then I run a straight line from the top (opposite the foot-lowest point of the ring relative to the rod in fishing positon) to the centerline of the reel face. Based on the line I plan to use, I then size the first guide from the reel and locate it so the top (opposite the foot) of the ring is on the line. If it is 20-22 inches from the reel all is good. But most of the time in order to do it requires a tall guide in that location and shorter guides in the other positions. Regardless, the guide should be about 20-24 inches from the reel face. The next transition guides, probably 2 but possibly one, will probably be shorter guides, and the diameter is less important than the height to keep them on the line mentioned earlier. You may have a 20-12-10 or a 25-16-10 or a 25-12-8 or even at times with a small reel face, something like a 25-12-6 with 4 more 6's. The idea is to locate that first guide of proper size based on the reel location, then have the other guides of proper heights and ring sizes to keep them on the line AND have proper stress distribution AND have the first choker guide (the first small one) about 27X.

It helps if you are a low volume guy like I am to know the guide dimensions so you can lay out the rod in detail before ordering guides. I lay them out on adding machine paper (another tip from Rodmaker Magazine) then keep the tape as a permanent record of the build, complete with guide numbers in case I need to replace one later.

Finally, it seems to me that with a fast action you would want the last couple guides from the tip closer together than 5 1/2 inches (between your second and third)- I usually end up no more than 4 inches for the first, and progress from there to get equal angles of the line to the rod on both sides of each guide and fairly small angles.

Regarding your comment on the "big step" - the step is less important than the height to keep the guides on the line. The idea is to get the line into the small guides as quickly as possible and on a straight line from the reel centerline through the tops of the rings. The steps will be what they are depending on the stress test and the heights of the guides.

If you haven't read the article in the library, that is your best next step.

regards

Without knowing the particulars of the setup, my guess is changing the 3rd guide, as you mentioned, would be the best option.

Mike,
I think you are on the right track.
One thing that I look for when I am selecting guide sizes, as well as guide spacing is the ability to have a "clean" and "straight" line flow from the top, side and bottom of the reel spool through the guides to the tip.

i.e. I dislike seeing any line deflection from the reel spool through the guides to the tip, on an unflexed blank. i.e. this would be the type non rod deflection, that the line tends to see on a long cast with a light lure. As a result, in order to minimize line drag, on guides, I really dislike having the line bent, or deflected by any guide as the line flows off any portion of the line spool to the tip of the rod.

If the reel is of a size with a larger spool, I will tend to go with a size 25, 16, 10, and all smaller running guides to the tip, or possibly a size 7 after the size 10 before going to the running guides.

Otherwise, with a smaller reel, the 20,12, 10 and running guides is about right.

I also start with a nominal 18-22 inches of the first guide from the face of the reel.

In particular, when I set the size of the first guide and the placement of the first guide, I pull line off of the top of the spool, and look for the line to just touch the top of the first guide.
Then, I pull line off the bottom of the spool and expect the line to just touch the bottom of the first guide. Then, adjust the other guides accordingly. The placement of the 2nd guide will have a minor effect on this line alignment as well.

Good luck
Roger

The line doesn't care about the change from the 10 to the 6 - it isn't using all that space anyway.

If you have it set up so that the outside edges of the guides touch the plotted line path, you're good to go.

Take it outside and cast it. Then if you wish, make the changes you mentioned and take that outside and cast it. You'll know in 10 to 15 minutes which set up will work best for you.

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Not trying to Hyjack the post, but why wouldn't you want to use the center of the guide ring instead of the top of the ring to line up the guides? I used the center of the guides on a rod I did a couple of weeks ago, and was very happy with the way it casts. I may not be doing it properly, but it really seemed to work for me on that rod.

Tom,
The reason is simple physics.
i.e. as the line comes off of the reel spool, the line is going to be coming off of the spool in a circular flow. The circular flow has a diameter that is a bit larger than the diameter of the reel spool.
Hence, the idea to match the line flow - of this circular line flow to each of the edges of the guides.

i.e. when the line is coming off of the top of the line spool, it should be JUST touching the tops of the first 1-3 guides. When the line is coming off of the bottom of the line spool, it should be just touching hte BOTTOMS of the first 1-3 guides.

As the line continues to flow down the rod toward the tip, it will gradually center up toward the centers of the guides as it gets to the tip of the rod.

The problem with using the center of the guides, is that then, when you have the line at the top edge of the spool, and or the bottom edge of the spool, you won't have checked to be sure that the line is just barely touching the guide and not having the guide deflect the line.

A very common problem, when using a butt guide that is either in the wrong position or the wrong size or height, is that when the line is at the bottom of the spool, the line begans rubbing on the bottom of the first guide - either due to guide size, height or placement. This rubbing, is not conducive to maximum casting distance, or for minimum cranking effort on a light lure retreival on an unbent or unflexed rod.

Take care
Roger

The idea is stop the circular coils from traveling up the rod. You'd like to have the line straightened by the butt guide or at least the 2nd guide and then traveling flat on out. The longer the coils are allowed to persist, the less distance you can achieve. You want the line to hit that bottom edge of the butt guide, which flattens and controls it, and leads to better casting distance.

In addition, using the center of the rings causes you to use larger and therefore heavier guides than you need if you use the outside of the rings. More weight also means some amount of wasted energy which reduces rod performance in nearly all areas.

While a "cone of flight" set up on the first few guides certainly works, it won't work quite as well as putting the outside of the guide rings on the line path.

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It may be a bit hard to see in this photo - but the coils are severely disrupted upon reaching the butt guide and completely gone by the 2nd guide.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Thomas

I do it similar to what you do. I line up the center of the spool or the spool shaft and try to get it close to running into the center of the guide rings.

My belief is that when the line comes off the spool and gravity will pull it down. The pictures I have seen always show the line - rubbing - on the guide edge. Witch tells me the guides ring is to close to the blank. So I try for the center.

Always test cast. ---- Anyone using that Microwave guide set up ??? ---

Bill - willierods.com

Gravity doesn't have time to pull the line down to the bottom of the ring. Do some calculations on the speed the line is moving on the cast and you will believe. The dynamics of the coils coming off the spool totally overwhelm gravity. Tom Kirkman's argument that the line touching the bottom of the guide to get rid of the coils quickly makes sense. I just don't buy the gravity argument after finding out how fast the line is moving on a cast. I believe that Tom's argument is also why micros work so well, they get the line to traveling through the air as a .010 inch "column" rather than coils traveling through the air, which is much less efficient. But, the bottom line is to try it both ways. I think that with sof lines like braid, you will have a hard time finding the difference, but with mono, especially flouro, the little details will make much more difference.

Then why do all pictures have a double foot guide that the ring is close to the blank and of course shows the line -- folding -- onto the bottom of the ring as gravity pulls it down ???

With the ring higher off the blank and in line with the center of the spool - this will not happen Or at least not as much.

Bill - willierods.com

So is a 7 guide arrangement placed into 41 1/2" the accepted spacing for this 6' rod?

If the line is folding down onto a guide then I expect the photo was taken at the end of the cast when line velocity is very low, or the line is folding just due to dynamics. I'm not saying that there is no effect from gravity, but that gravity is by far minor in its influence of line trajectory relative to line dynamics. If I get time today I'll do the calculations over again, put them into a post, and you can judge for yourself what the most likely influence on the line is.

7 guides in 41 inches is fine. Depending on what you want, you could go one more or one less and still be fine.

If the line on a spinning rod isn't hitting the lower edge of the butt guide (or more), then you might as well not have a butt guide. That's its point - to bring the line under control by disrupting the large line coils.

Here's another thing to look for - on the retrieve, does the line revolve around the entire inside circumference of the butt guide? If so, the ring is too far off the rod or too far from the reel spool. The line should sit on the bottom edge of the ring and move only slightly on that point.

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Regarding the influence of gravity, the line can move down due to gravity according to the following equation: distance (down) = 1/2 a (acceleration due to gravity) x t (time) squared. So assuming your first guide is 20 inches from the reel, and the line speed is 50 feet/second (600 inches/second) at the initial cast (OK, you don't agree with 50, and I don't know if it's right, but I'll bet it isn't too far off-plug in your own number), it gets to the first guide in about .03 seconds.

Therefore gravity has .03 seconds to drop the line in the 20 inches to the guide.

Plugging the numbers into the equation you get 1/2 x 32 feet/second squared x .03 x .03 = .014, or 14 one-thousandths of an inch of line drop due to gravity. This is less than the diameter of 15 # Suffix Ultra Soft Hybrid line.

I think you can see that the numbers I estimated have to be really far off for the line to significantly drop due to gravity, at least early in the cast. Of course at the end of the cast line velocity is zero, and gravity can cause lots of droop.

This leads me to the conclusion that the biggest influence on line passing through any guide early in the cast is not gravity, but is the dynamics of the line coming off the spool and heading into the guide. And this is where it really gets complicated- line density, line hardness, line diameter, spool diameter, spool shape, reel height off the rod, distance from the spool to the guide, guide shape and angle to the line direction (?) all are factors that would be expected to be a factor.

I've presented this before and not all agree, but physics will not be denied. The fact is that gravity doesn't have enough time to move the line a significant distance. (early in the cast)

The line is starting at the bottom of the guide ring, prior to the cast.

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I can see the need to not worry about guide size on - say surf rods - only because of the heavy weight 3-6-8 plus and longer rods that throw the lure. Pulls the line and more oz of lure weight. throw the guides at a higher speed.

But when you get lighter lures- the need for more guides and more line control is necessary. .
So when the line path is on top of the guide, my common sense tells me there will be more control of the line and having it go around the guide ring, instead of collecting at the lowest point of the guide closer to the water - --- when gravity grabs it. -- And it will.

When i start to cast a spin rod I grab the line close to the blank --where my hand is - which is at the top of the ring - closer to the blank. But if the ring is to small or to fare. or to low - to the blank -- the pig tail lays at the lower part of the ring - away from the blank and the more any line rubs on any surface causes friction and slows it down

Shot a gun and as distance gets larger you tend to shot higher --- because gravity will bring the bull lower lower

Bill - willierods.com

Michael Danek - impressive post!

Michael, that would be 0.014 feet, not inches:) Plus it assumes the line isn't at an angle to the planet earth and assumes all happens in a vacuum (or the line has no wind resistance). Sounds slow to me.....does it really take a cast two seconds to travel 33 yards? Besides, Tom is right (as usual) and the line is already at the bottom of the guide. It is due to us holding the line in place as we load the rod for our cast. If there were no guides other than the tip we would have a big bowstring effect rather than the line following the curve of the blank. Probably said that bad but I think you will see what I mean. As you release the line at the start of the cast the line will move to the bottom of the butt guide.....unless it is VERY poorly placed/sized.

Bill, if you take a bullet out of the cartridge....and drop it from the same height as a bullet shot from a horizontal barrel....which one reaches the ground first?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.