Hi all,

My name is Dale Holmes, I'm from Tasmania, AUSTRALIA and I'm fairly new to rod building (and just only just joined this forum!)

I built a Rainshadow RX7 5wt flyrod last year as my first project. Now I'd like to build a couple of spinning rods and I have a couple of questions:

Firstly, an easy one: When you are measuring the placement of single foot spinning guides, do the measurements indicate the location of the guide ring or tthe top or bottom of the guide foot?

I am going to buy the following two Batson spin bass blanks: SB 720-4 (6'0" 4-8lb 4pc) and SB 781-3 (6'6" 6-12lb 3pc), and to build these up with Batson handle kits and Batson VS guides (and 2 foot VD guides as the butt guide)

When deciding on guide sizes, I have looked at numerous other spin rods that I own and I feel that I would prefer to not use any size 6 or 7 guides and to have size 8 as the minimum size. No particular reason, other than I think size 8 seems small enough without going microscopic!

Batson suggests the following guide sizes for the 6'0" rod: 6-7-8-10-16-25; and for the 6'6" rod: 6-7-7-8-10-16-25

I looking at changing these to the following: (6'0") 8-8-10-12-16-20 and (6'6") 8-8-10-10-12-16-25

So, from a beginners perspective, will it make any discernible difference in changing the guide sizes in this manner? And is there any advantage in using the smaller size 6 and 7 guides?

Thanks

Dale



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2010 09:31AM by Dale Holmes.

The proper guide size is the smallest that will still easily pass your line and any related connections. The less weight the rod is required to carry, the more responsive it will be. Yes, it can and often does make a big difference when you drop the guide size on the upper half of the rod by a couple or three sizes. There is a point of diminishing returns, of course, but you won't arrive there with #8's.

Of course, you're free to use whatever size you feel comfortable with. #8's are not going to ruin your rod or anything like that.

I suggest you read this for a method that is quick and easy to set up and which offers great performance right out of the box: [www.rodbuilding.org]


...............

Dale,
As Tom pointed out, you can choose any size guide that you prefer. As he also pointed out, you can generally go with guides that are smaller than a size 8 from both a weight and a line size perspective.

But, I will say, that for many people, the convenience of having a larger guide side when both threading line, clearing gunk that might get on the line, as well as being able to pass larger knots and swivels far outweigh the advantages that folks give to the smaller guides.

So, if you like size 8 guides, go with them. If you like size 3 guides and work with the smaller size - go for them.

Another option to consider is the use of a temporary use of taped on guides, or guides that are wrapped on, but not coated. That way, one could try using a rod with different sized guides, and if you don't prefer the particular guide sizes, you could always cut off the tape or thread that is holding the guide the rod and tie on a different sized guide. Many folks use this method when experimenting with new ideas to get the feel of the differences for themselves.

When you measure guide position, you normally measure the location of the ring. Since guide feet are all different lengths, it makes more sense to measure the location on the rod, where the line will be held by the guide which is the ring of the guide.

Good luck and enjoy.

Roger

Hi Dale,

Welcome! Tom covered the advantages of using smaller guides, especially towards the tip of the rod. If you're in an experimenting mood, try the rods both ways - with your proposed setup and with the smaller guides - you'll be able to feel the difference. On those blanks, I wouldn't use anything larger than a size 6 for the running guides (all but the bottom 3), and am starting to move more towards "micro" guides (size 4 and smaller) when the application permits.

I don't know if it's correct, but I measure guide spacing at the center of the guide ring band, since that's the part that affects performance. Guide foot length will vary from guide to guide and model to model. What ever way you decide to measure, stay consistent.

I too measure using rings location and suggest you follow Tom's advice.

Unless you are using heavy lines, tying large knots on leaders, and if you can thread a hook I would not worry about threading the line through smaller guides? I would also suggest you go with the smaller 6 or even 5mm guides.

The improved performce from the balnk/rod is well worth using the smaller guides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2010 10:48AM by Steve Gardner.

Dale,
You don't have to go smaller to receive the advantages of a faster responding rod.
Try single foot titanium wire fly guides. Large opening and lighter weight.
A #2 fly guide has an opening comparable with the #8 insert guides you're planning and will weigh less than a #5 insert guide. The light wire guides are half the weight of a #3 microguide.
It's not the size, but the weight that robs performance.

Eugene Moore

Eugene;
What is the weight of a #2 single foot titanium wire fly guide.

Dale you will get a ton of great advice for free here. You will get even more if you spend a bit. If Tom still offers his "special edition guide CD" I suggest you consider the purchase. It teaches you a time proven method that can be used for any rod. At first you might be concerned that you rod doesn't "look normal" but the first cast (and fish) will remove all doubt.

Most fishing rods are built to catch fishermen. Kits reflect this trend. There is a better way if you are open to it. For the best advice post what reel, what line, and what fish along with the fishing technique.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Steve,
Measurements on a #2 light wire single foot titanium ranged from .62 grains to .72 grains averaged at .044 grams. Used a reloading scale but did not have a certification weight. The #3 microguides measured in at .97 grains to 1.17 grains during the same setup. Almost twice the weight.
Wire dia was .020 thousands or .5mm.

Eugene Moore

Dale, after using micro guides, (less than 6mm rings), I feel like when I'm building a freshwater spinning rod that using a 6mm guide at the tip is very large. I only use a 6mm guide if I can't find a matching tip smaller than a 6mm. I can't imagine building a light rod as you are planning using an 8mm guide as the smallest guide. My set up for a 7' ML-M might look like 30-16-10-6-6-6-6-6tip, with all of the 6's being single foot fly guides, and setting this up using the New Guide Concept system/layout. Those sizes may or may not be optimum, but are just an example of how many light weight guides will be near the tip of a light freshwater rod setup. The reduced tip weight will be very noticable to you after you set up a rod this way, and will cause much less fatigue over a full day of casting and reeling. If you don't need to pass any huge knots for leaders, and I'm guessing for your rods, you may not have any leader knots, there is a big advantage of using smaller guides on your lightweight rods. If you can use a 4mm tip and 4mm single foot fly guides, all the much better for a lighter weight rod. Until you build the lightest weight rod to catch the fish you are after, you won't know how much better a lighter weight, particularly lighter tip weight rod is.

Thanks very much everyone for your replies.

I had never heard of the New Guide Concept system, but its most like likely I'll use it.
In any case, I'll probably buy enough guides for both this configuration and the Batson configuration and make up my mind when they arrive. The Batson VS guides are only around 60-80 cents each in the smaller sizes and it won't hurt to have a few spares.

Dale - Tasmania, AUSTRALIA