I see most manufacturers list an MB843 as a med-heavy, but most guys I build for seem to want that blank as their medium rod.

With the understanding that there is variance between brands - what MB power do you consider Medium, Med-Hvy, and Heavy?

That's the problem with such subjective terms - what you consider "medium" and what somebody considers medium may be entirely different things.

You may call 60 degrees warm while the next guy calls 60 degrees cool, but you'll both agree that 60 degrees is 60 degrees. This is why the CCS system has so much value.

..............

You can also have two rods with matching "powers" and totally different tips. That tip can make a difference in lure presentation and blank performance for the technique.

My personal opinion is you have to work as a translator.

You can measure blanks all day (so you understand their properties and how they perform). Go tell your customer "this blank has an ERN of XX" or "this blank is deflected 30 inches with 700g" and that means squat to him. He's going to say "Ok , so which do I need for a 1/2 oz jig pitched under docks?"

Two choices:

1) You can spend the time required to educate him on those terms so he knows - but that cuts into your profit margins unless you bill him for your time training him on the arts of measuring blanks.
2) You can be a translator - he speaks a different language. Can you hear him say "beer" and know that he's wanting a "cerveza"?

I opt for #2.

He says I need a MH for pitching a 1/2 jig and you know that means a rod that deflects 1/3rd with 600g with a tip that loads up so it flings that jig under a dock with about a half cast... It sounds like this... "Here ya go... sounds like this is what you're looking for. That would make a great rod for what your are wanting to do."

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 02:56PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

I would hope you would never say that - it wouldn't be necessarily helpful and isn't quite how the CCS was designed to used. (If you can use it that way and make it work - great.)

I would hope you'd say something like, "This blank has a DBI of 8.2/75 while your current one here has a DBI of 7.5/70, so it's going to be a little more powerful and has a quicker tip."

I do agree that you have to learn what the customer means, even though his terminology may not be the same as "rod builder speak."

.........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 03:31PM by Tom Kirkman.

Alex, I opt for #2 any chance I get. I always ask what they want the rod to do, with what line and what lure.

I ask the customer to bring a rod similar to what he wants. I measure the power and action angle, and then ask him about lure weight, style & technique, etc. I have even been asked two times in two months to "build a rod that is right between these two for power".

What I have noticed is that people like labels! What I mean is - you can tell them almost anything, but you'd better tell them something. I tell them that in general, the 2, 3, or 4 at the end of the model number is an indicator of the power in that line by that manufacturer.

Off topic maybe - I don't charge time for training. I spent 3 hours in the shop once this summer with 4 guys that all came in together. I went over power and action until I was tired of hearing it. One guy ordered a rod that morning. Since then, that meeting resulted in 8 sales and two guys that were supposed to come over last night had to re-schedule due to an emergency. I think it pays to educate. One fellow even came back and brought a friend because they wanted to see again how I measured blanks and recorded the data. They really think it's cool to compare a couple of rods they like on the duplicator. Some of them are surprised.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

An interesting way of selling is what you see with the Skeet Reese Tessera rods, they don’t have any line or lure ratings, they just have a sticker listing the application, such as spinnerbait or carolina rig. It will be interesting to see if this catches on or not.

Cervesa por favor - i muy fria. I will explain to anyone who wants to listen and I will happily do the measurements for them if they stop by. However I do quite a bit of work through the internet and e-mail/telephone. That means measuring their rod for comparison doesn't really work all that well - best I can do is ask the basic questions. lure & line wt; type / style of fishing; type of configuration (conventional or spinning); will this rod see salt water (guide frame consideration); grip material; handle style; preferred length. It's a dialog that can take a couple of emails or a phone call to resolve.

Like Chuck I consider the education an investment in future business. The more the customer knows the better they feel and the more they trust the builder.

I think the initial post on this thread by Mark, Chuck and Alex's post specifically refer to fresh water bass rods

I would like to separate the importance of rod rating systems into the importance of use by rodbuilders for comparative reasons and use by the angling public who buy rods.

This is a unique market where the customer base is looking for a specific rod to do specific things. Many anglers purchase custom rods to obtain "tweaks" that are not readily available on the present retail market. Requests like "a punch rod with a soft tip", "a moderate action crank rod with back end power for deep divers" or " fast action finesse worm rod with more back end power than XXX " are quite common.

There is another thread on the fourm with a post that Rich Forhan states there are at least 25 different bass technique specific rods. It would be very nice if the fishermen had the desired CCS numbers in their shirt pocket for each rod desired. The reality of the situation is that they do not. Not yet anyway.

The wise rodbuilder interested in sales increases will learn to communicate effectively with his customer base while developing a history of tracking numbers for later use and comparison.. Time will tell if the CCS system will be the market standard.

The most effective way to complete the sale of a task specific custom rod is to communiate, with the angler, by demonstrating action and power in a way that they can easily relate too.

Ask them do they have a rod that they like? Can you bring it to me for a look see?

or

What is improvements would you like for your existing rods? Do you have problems with pitching or casting lure weights on the lower end of the rod ratings?

or

Do you want one a little stiffer?

or

A little more tip?

or

A little faster or slower -

or

Just like old Suzie my favorite for Frogging! I can not find one in the stores today!

or - or -or - or - or

Put them on the board side by side and show them what options are available and what changes can easily be made.

At present, for CUSTOMER seeing is believing!

One question I have for down the road. The day when a perfect spinner bait rod is built by rod company ZZZ - the Staff Elite for ZZZ wins the Classic and every fisherman going into stores want one. Is it reasonalble to assume compay ZZZ will define the action and power of the rod with definitive numbers?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2010 10:52AM by Bill Stevens.

good thread, good info!

The bottom line, and something I think everyone here agreed on, is that regardless of what system or non-system you use, you must have a reference point to start from.

..............

Marc,
I want to answer your original question and that is the Mag Bass Medium is the Mag Bass Medium and the Mag Bass Medium Heavy is the MB Medium Heavy... Some brands may label the medium a 3 power and the mh a 4 power while others maybe a 2 and a 3, but that isn't relevant. The important thing to note is that within each line, the MB843 will be softer than the MB844 that will be softer than the MB845...

The problem with some of the measuring systems being discussed is they are relative to the rods length and lack the ability to easily compare rods of varying length. They also suffer from being a static single point measurement. The measurement and any subsequent comparison is for that specific amount of rod deflection, nothing more nothing less. You may have 2 very different rods that measure out as being much more similar than they actually are because of the point at which they are compared. Ultimately, all the numbers you get will be meaningless to your customers and they'll have no idea what you're talking about, but they might help you better figure out what your customers want and help you meet their expectations.

Thomas

The CCS doesn't suffer from that sort of thing because the deflection standard is based on a distance equal to a percentage of the rod's total length. An rod with a higher ERN will be more powerful than one with a lower ERN figure, period. Same with the AA and CCF.

...............

The problem of the "static single point measurement" is addressed by the URRS which applies to all rods which flex. Here, one measures ERN, TP (Tip Power), and PR (Power Reservoir) instead of, or in addition to AA. If all those values are the same, the rods will "feel" the same. If they are not, one can determine exactly why they don't feel the same.