Since the two handers go through so many different casts....and loads....what is a good way to place the guides....icw the spine?
Jim



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 10:07AM by Jim Williams.

The lever arm effect of the guides trumps the spine. Since the guides are on the bottom of the rod there is no chance of severe rod twist when the rod is under load from a fish. It is the backcast when you will have some tendency of the rod to twist. There is very little you can do about this, however, unless you can develop some means of having the guides shift from one side of the rod to the other. About the best you can do is use very low frame guides so that any lever arm effect on the backcast is kept to the absolute minimum. This is another reason why you don't want to use a ton of different guide sizes on a rod. Get right down to the smallest and lowest frame guides you intend to use within just a guide or two of the butt guide. This will provide a straighter line path and reduce the lever arm effect as much as possible.

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Thank you Tom. Excellent explanation.

I actually have considered guides that rotate. Just haven't quite figured out how to build it yet. I think it would be an interesting project. The final product might be what I was seeking....or might be laughable. I desire to build a grip of a TN handle with slip rings. Perhaps a 12" grip.

But somehow mount the grip on bearings...so the the grip and reel can rotate. on the rod. The idea being that on the back cast...when you FEEL the rod flip....it is the signal to commence the forward cast....and the guides should rotate back to the fishing position at the end of the cast. Also the rod would rotate when playing a fish. But mounting the grip on the rod....and maintaining the rod integrity....is a challenge for me.

Thank you again for the excellent information.

We featured an old guide patent design in an issue of RodMaker last year that allowed the line to flip around the rod. The only problem was the weight associated with the guides. A revolving handle is an interesting concept.

The bottom line is, are two-handed rods actually experiencing a practical problem on the backcast?

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Grip and handle rotate? Don't you mean the blank and guides rotate? When they rotate doesn't the reel wind up 180 degrees (more or less) opposite the guides? I have an inkling that this might not be a good thing to have happen

I think you misunderstood what he's saying - if the rod is free to rotate in the handle, it will spin so that the guides face the load without attempting to twist an otherwise stationary rod blank.

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Yes, but the reel remains at 0 degrees and the guides / blank are moving toward 180 with the potential for the line to wind up on the blank. It could work I suppose with careful guide placement. Far be it from me to throw cold water on any new idea!

That's true. But unless you're shooting line on the backcast it shouldn't matter. Maybe.

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I think you would not have a tighe loop and maximum forward momentum with the line. I would think that the "movement" of the rod would loose the generated power of the load and throw a "ripple" into the line that would end up deforming the tight loop. Maybe not but just my first thought. I have never had any real problems with the backcast, I will almost always use a water anchor with a small D loop but there is still a ton of power generated. The only thing you may get is a small amount of twist in the sections. Every hour or so I just check my alinement, some folks wax others tape. That being said many great inventions were born of 'out of the box ideas' such as yours.

Eric Viburs Wrote:
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> I think you would not have a tighe loop and
> maximum forward momentum with the line. I would
> think that the "movement" of the rod would loose
> the generated power of the load and throw a
> "ripple" into the line that would end up deforming
> the tight loop. Maybe not but just my first
> thought. I have never had any real problems with
> the backcast, I will almost always use a water
> anchor with a small D loop but there is still a
> ton of power generated. The only thing you may get
> is a small amount of twist in the sections. Every
> hour or so I just check my alinement, some folks
> wax others tape. That being said many great
> inventions were born of 'out of the box ideas'
> such as yours.


You are dead on ........... 2 weeks ago I was taking Spey Casting lessons from Mike Kinny at the Spey Clave in Idaho ........... I was amazed at how much power is stored and transmitted when the anchorpoint and "D" loop are correct and how little energy you expend .......... if the rod would turn, you would lose abunch of that energy and probably end up with a pile of line around you instead of a fly 100 ft+ down stream .............. THese guys were casting up to 170+ ft ............ a Spey rod that turns would defeat the purpose.

The rod would still flex the same even if it turned. In fact, it's already turning (twisting) to some extent.

This is one of those things you just need to try for yourself. It really wouldn't be that hard to rig up, although the means I can think of to do it would add a bit of weight.

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I could see one major issue with the handle bearing idea, if the rod is a full flex and loads to the cork and not off the tip as in a scandi cast then the bearing alignment would be way off during loading and not creat a smooth turnover of the rod/handle. It would work fine while at rest with no load but when flexed it would not rotate. You would also have to have some sort of "stop" in place so it would not continue to rotate and end up wrapping around you as you bring the cast around. Just a few thoughts, I am by NO means shooting down the idea just playing "devils advocate" here and assiting in the war-gaming process.

Actually those are good points that would certainly have to be addressed.

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Lots of good info. Only one way to find out for sure.....

I actually have been considering this thought for about 3 years....for a "single" hand fly rod. Just not that much of a craftsman. So haven't thoughjt about the best way to build one for trial.

I don't think the line is going to wrap....on a single hand rod anyway. The load on the tip should controal where the rod axis is.

I took my 9' fly rod to a stream to do a small sample test. I twisted the tip section of the two piece rod offset 90 degrees from the correct axis. Intent was to monitor the casting effect. I got so interested in fly fishing for trout....I DID NOT notice the difference! I fished for about 2.5 hours before I remembered to think about it. That kind of asnwered the question in my mind.Thus....I do not think that the guides being perfectly aligned with the reel at all times is a big necessity. Now for competition casting surely not good. But I am just thinking about building fishing poles.

So I was not looking for distance....just a decent fly rod. And then got to wondering about letting the rod rotate...since there is so much talk about the torque on the blank if you do not put the guides on the effective spine.....it's just an idea that popped into my head.

At the time of the initial idea I was not think spey rod. Just a backcast, then a forward cast. Thinking the rod would only rotate approx 180 degrees one time on the backcast...then one time on the forward cast and could possibly be telling you when to make the forward cast....as the line is out behind you and you feel the rod flip.....rod is loaded...time to cast forward....

Then thinking that while fighting a fish it might be helpful for the tip of the rod to be able to follow the fish....load....oh well.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 09:38PM by Jim Williams.

Torque is created by the lever arm effect of the guides, not the spine. However, rod blanks are designed to withstand a certain amount of torsion. In my original post I mentioned using the lowest guides possible to reduce that lever arm effect. I seriously doubt that there is any problem on the backcast due to rod twist. Most likely, this is an attempt to correct a problem that doesn't exist. But it's an interesting concept and I hope those interested will pursue it.

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Jim,
Please keep us posted on your efforts and results.