Great topic, great reading, and lots of information for a beginner like myself. Thanks, to everyone!

Ron

Ron Flowers
Strike back with venom..........
Cobra Custom Rods
Arlington, TX

ricky - split grips - volume 4, # 4 - probably out of print by now - try the DVD from Tom.

It's on the "Task Specific Rod Building" CD along with several other of Rich's articles.

..............

I think as rods builders, we do ourselves and customers a great disservice by not taking the time to learn the properties of things we suggest being used for different parts of rod construction and the effects those items have on the finished product.
Having for years used weight to balance rods for specific techniques in bass fishing, either by adding weight to the butt sections for tip up techniques, or reducing as much weight in the butt/handle area as possible for tip down techniques.
I’ve always used Tungsten, stainless steel, or brass when using weight to shift a rod’s balance point further back, (with titanium being the preferred material).

To suggest that we use lead or lead tape on any rod where “feel sensitivity” is a factor is the worst possible advice that could be given.

With its high internal damping characteristics and its ability to absorb vibration, lead is one of the most efficient sound/vibration attenuators for industrial, commercial, residential, and sporting applications.
Lead tape, sheet lead, lead-loaded vinyls, lead composites, and lead-containing laminates are used for active vibration and sound control when eliminating vibration by design.

Lead is known as a dead material which basically means it absorbs vibrations, sounds, and deadens the feel and vibrations of almost anything it is attached to.

This makes it one of the worst, (if not the worst) things you could put on a rod in which “feel sensitivity” is one of the preferred characteristics of that rod.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2010 02:32PM by Steve Gardner.

I am not sure how lead in the absolute butt end of a rod is going to dampen vibration traveling from the tip to the reel seat (hand location). Obviously, you have spent a lot of time working on your "Vibronics" system and I have handled plenty of your quality work. I am not doubting your assessment of the characteristics of lead, I just don't understand how it would interact with a process taking place in front of its location. Wouldn't the addition of ANY weight (regardless of material composition) act to lessen sensitivity overall?

Jim
Here is a clip (test) form a previous thread I posted on, that will help you to see that what happens past your hand can effect what you feel at your hand.

Take a bare blank and hold it vertical about mid point between thumb and fore finger a few inches above a carpet.
Now lightly thump the blank with your other hands finger like you were flicking a fly and see how long you can feel the vibrations between your two supporting fingers.

Now thump again and lower onto a carpet and see how quickly the vibrations disappear.
Or thump while it is on carpet and feel how little if any vibration you feel.
You can thump above or below your supporting hand. Results will be similar.

In this test you see that even having the deadening material several inches from your supporting hand you still feel the lessening effects. Doesn’t even mater which direction vibrations coming from, whether between fingers and handle area or above fingers before it gets to handle area, results are the same.

Your question;
Wouldn't the addition of ANY weight (regardless of material composition) act to lessen sensitivity overall?

Answer; Yes- but there are other advantages that cause the minor compromises in sensitivity to be worth it
1- Bite detection is increased by the lighter tip
2- Fishing comfort is increased by moving balance point further back to stronger muscles or the elbow joint, instead of having to use the wrist muscle to support tip.
3- Fatigue over the course of the day is lessoned allowing the angler to better concentrate on what is happening at the other end of the line instead of his tired aching wrist muscle, and again increasing bite detection.
4- The lighter tip will not out run the bait (especially after wrist is tired) allowing the angler to stay in better contact with the bait increasing sensitivity between bait/bite and the rod.


The point is;
That if you are going to add weight; you want to use materials that will have the least impact on the rod’s sensitivity.
The more impact those materials have, the more sensitivity is lost, affectively lessoning the advantages you can obtain from balancing the rod.

So when this is done with lead and its known deadening effects. You have minimized and in some cases eliminated the benefits of balancing the rod.

Tungsten with give you the Absolute best results because of its hardness and ability to transmit vibrations better then lead or other metals.

If you bass fish using lead worm weights verses Tungsten worms weights, then you already know the difference in how much better Tungsten transits vibration to the tip or the rod. It works the same at the other end over lead weights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2010 02:36PM by Steve Gardner.

I do hear what you are saying ... but in your test, there is a connected "outlet" for the vibration (the floor). With something embedded into the butt, yet still isolated as a component of the rod ... wouldn't the test scenario be markedly different? With electricity, there is a BIG difference between grounded and ungrounded current. IF I take a chunk of that carpet and wrap it around the butt and hold it above the ground (clear air) will the results be the same as in your experiment?

You guys are the bass fishing experts, I don't work that hard at it. When I get tired, I go home. What I do try to do is to build my rods as light as practically possible.

No, I haven't tried titanium weights ... just tungsten, and lead before that. I will play around with putting some lead material at the butt of blanks/rods and see if I can notice a measurable difference in vibration awareness. I have an open casting area and a few lakes as well. I am not dense, just not convinced.

Jim;
I'm a little brain dead.
I've meant Tungsten the whole time; don't know why I’ve been typing titanium?
Been fishing in the State finals for the last 9 out of 12 days, guess my brains a little fried from all the sun, will go back and change it to eliminate any more confusion.

"Wouldn’t the test scenario be markedly different?"
I'm sure there would be some difference, but do not know if it would be markedly different.
Have not tried taping my carpet to the blank yet.
That will have to wait for the wife to be preoccupied before I cut a piece to find out or it could cost my life.

thanx ricky

Jim I suspect you already know the answers. Would it matter which end of the crankshat the harmonic balancer was on? How about the middle?

Someone will cry foul and state an ounce of lead on the tip is way different than one at the butt. And I'll agree but only because one ounce at the tip might ruin the rod to the point where any action at the lure would prevent the formation of a standing wave in the blank. If we took the blank and hooked an oscope up and used "maxwell's silver hammer" to whack the blank, thereby setting up a standing wave, I doubt it would matter where the lead was placed.....except for one point...and that would have to do with the hertz (length) of the wave and where the "absorber" was in relation. Those that dampen guns barrels will understand.

Off topic butI I have to say I'm green with envy. You sunfish (okay LMB if you like:) guys have upteen application specific offerings with loads of innovation in handles, guides, and blanks. All for some itty bitty fish that don't fight much. Sure wish someone would offer me something special for my neglected dolphin and sailfish.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.