After having fished multiple split grip spinning and casting rods, I am just not sold that they boost rod performance, as they always result it a tip heavier rod.

The only way, with a clear conscience that I can build a split grip as a "better" rod, is if the weight removed from the split is added at the very end of the rod, resulting in a nicer feel. I know of no mass produced split grip rods that do so, which in my evaluation makes them all lesser, not better fishing tools.

Anyone else agree?

Also, if any component suppliers out there are reading, it would be nice to have some 3/4" diameter weights that can be added to the end of a rod inside the butt cap. If more room is needed the cork tennon can easily be trimmed.

You have kind of answered your own question, but if rod balance is your main goal a full rear grip is the last thing you want to use. Any weight between the reel seat and the very end of the rod that is not required for ergonomic reasons is just added weight for very little gain. You can build a rod with a very light split grip and balance weights at the extreme butt end that weighs less than a similar rod with a full grip that has the same balance.

A perfect example is a factory rod I have from a friend who liked the rod but thought it was too tip heavy. It was very bad with a balance point almost 12 inches ahead of the reel seat. I tried the quick and easy way by cutting a hole in the cork butt cap and inserting 1oz tungsten weights. The first weight moved the balance point back about 4 inches, the second weight only moved the balance about 2.5 inches, and the third weight only moved the balance 1.5 inches. So you can see that each additional weight was less effective at moving the balance point since it was getting closer to the reel seat, when you use a balance kit with weights cantilevered off the end of the butt each additional weight is more efficient since it is further from the reel seat. For the rod in question it started out at 6.0oz which is quite heavy for a 7 foot bass rod already, and after adding 3oz it still was tip heavy. I will tell the owner that the only solution is to completely strip the rod and rebuild with lighter guides and components, which should always be the first thing we do to improve balance and every other performance characteristic of the rod, or live with it.

Mark -

1) You can move the reel seat forward ever so slightly (usually 3/4" or so) and regain that balance.
2) I don't like adding weight, period. However, if you are going to do so, you can purchase "lead tape" and place it inside the cap OR the interior of the blank.

Jim -

Mike,
Don't put weight on the inside of the rod blank for balancing.
If you do that, you just end up moving the weight forward as you add necessary balancing weight.
Rather, put the weight at the extreme end of the butt in the form of a butt balancing cap, or remove a couple of rings off of the back of the blank and wind lead tape around the last 1/2 inch of blank. then, you can hollow out a cork ring to go over the weight and have a nice finished rod handle.

Marc,
No reason at all to Not have a balanced split grip handle rod. Simply use a bit of lead tape wrapped around the butt of the rod handle before putting on the butt cap or the last couple of cork rings and you will have a perfectly balanced rod.

p.s.
I think that the main reason, and parctically speaking, about the only reason that manufacturers use split grip is to save material costs in building a rod. If you take the cost of high quality cork today, which runs anywhere from $1-$5 per ring, you can save a serious chunk of change by using a split grip with no fore grip on a rod.

A typical 10 inch back grip takes 20 1/2 inch cork rings. A split grip 4 inch back grip only takes 8 rings.
A typical 4 inch fore grip takes 8 rings. A split grip handle with no fore grip takes 0 rings.

So, you have gone from 28 rings for a conventional handle at a price of $28 - $140 to 12 rings for a split grip for a price of $12-$40.


With respect to rod performance, I think that there is essentially 0 difference in rod performance between a split grip compared to a conventional handle. i.e. if you save weight in a split grip, by removing back handle material, you really need to add some of it back to get a reasonable rod balance.

If you like the look of a split grip, fine. I think that if you poll many many fishermen, and have them be totally candid, I suspect that the largest majority of most folks would rather have a conventional handle to fish with. Lots of instances where a fisher folk prefers to move his hand back when fishing on a long day to simply change his hand position. With the split grip, there is really no place to move the handle and still have a comfortable feel to the rod. Also, split grip handles are not at all conducive to use in a rod holder. So, any type of rod that you would want to use in a rod holder really doesn't work very well with nearly any style rod holder.

Yes, split grips are different and give the fisher folks a different - something to fish with.
Improved performance in the rod due to a split grip ? Maybe, maybe not.
Ligher weight in a split grip and still have a balanced rod, not generally.

There are certainly economic advantages - very very big economic advantages in a split grip and I expect that the needs for this economic advantage will keep the use of a split grip active in todays fishing world.

I have certainly built many split grips in the last few years for all of the reasons listed above - i.e. different look for certain fishermen, and economic advantage in building.
I have no problem in building a balanced split grip rod with the handle length that is wanted by the fisherfolks by adding a bit of weight under the butt grip. Is the split grip rod any lighter and or better performing than the conventional gripped rod - not usually.

Good luck
Roger

One of the reasons for commercially makers to adopt the split grip design is that it was something new. In this age of planned obsolescence, you have to continually cook up new things to excite the customers and convince them to replace their old item with a newer one. After Rich Forhan and the custom builders began popularizing the concept a few years back, the commercial makers were only too happy to have this drop into their laps.

There are times when the split grip has advantages. Other times, not. Don't use it just because everybody else is doing so. Use it when it offers you some sort of advantage on your rods and they way you fish.

..................

Split grips were designed to improve rod performance. They do. Problem is most builders have lost the whole concept of what they are supposed to do and how to use the properly. OR they never knew the original intent to begin with.

Example: One of the biggest issues is too small of a butt section. The idea of the split butt section was that your hand naturally fell in place for two handed casting. This required a section about 2.5" long and shaped for grip. Now you see these little balls, cones, etc.

Splits were designed for tournament fishermen looking for every possible advantage. Grab a grip 2 seconds faster is more time and more opportunity to catch a fish. One more casts in a day could mean the difference in $50K and squat. Five more casts could mean the difference in a full sack or an empty one.

Just as with many carbon components on street cars - most split grips are for looks. Few actually enhance performance as was originally intended,

As for weighting - if not adding an adjustable type kit on the butt, consider using epoxy mixed with tungsten powder. You can bore out a butt cap ring, fill an EVA cap, etc and slide it on. Tungsten is 1.5X heavier than lead, so you can do more with the same amount and mixing it with epoxy makes it pretty darn solid. I believe it goes for $20 for 1/2 pound.

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Alex,

where would I find tungsten powder?

Thanks,
Rick

Richard:
One source:

[www.tungsten-heavy-powder.com]

Roger

p.s.
Another thing to consider is the use of lead tape. Simple and easy to use. Simply wrap it around the butt of the rod, and put the bored out handle over it.

[www.google.com]

Take care
Roger

Many golf shops have it. It's used for weighting golf clubs. If there is a club maker in your area, you might be able to buy a couple ounces from him and miss the shipping charge.

online: try golfsmith.com - they have it in half pound. I believe Roger's link sells it by the pound. Price is same, would have to check shipping.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 12:37PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

Alex's first paragraph says it best, or just get the original RodMaker article on the split grip and read it closely. Commercial rod builders subscribe to RodMaker and paid attention - those that didn't, got left behind. We're all in this together - to improve the sport and improve the tools of the sport. Commercial rod companies are doing their part by following the better "tool" ideas in RodMaker while trying to make a few dollars.

Split grips always result in a tip heavier rod? Sure. Now list all the "specific techniques" where that is an advantage! Tip down is common in many bass techniques - but never in a tackle store where the customer is looking for a "balanced" feel of a bare rod. Useless!

The most extreme example is a split grip 8 foot Flip Stik - very tip heavy and feels like a club in the store, but ALWAYS perfectly balanced on the water without the aid of any added weight to the butt. For those that claim it's too tip heavy - the first issue is to learn how to Flip correctly - not add weight or worry about the split grip design.

There are over 20 techniques we use in Bass fishing - to be of any value - we must tie the design "form follows function", to the technique. A generic "Bass rod" that is good for all those 20+ different technique doesn't exist, except perhaps in the "marts' - where they belong.

When we discuss a modification to the "old standards" of bass fishing - we will be better served by mentioning the "specific technic" to which it applies. That way we will be able to sort out those that actually fish that way from those that don't.

Anyone who suggests to an experienced bass angler or an experienced rodbuilder to move a reel seat forward to improve rod balance is giving advice from a very weak position. Some markets are saturated with store rods for the purpose of selling fishing "poles" to rod shaking price checkers. Most of the purchasers of "poles" do not know the meaning of fish control nor have any compehension of the things Rich Forham refers too.

Good to see you Rich... it's been a while!

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Bill Stevens Wrote:
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> Anyone who suggests to an experienced bass angler
> or an experienced rodbuilder to move a reel seat
> forward to improve rod balance is giving advice
> from a very weak position.


Yep ... call me weak. However, I would much rather move the reel seat a touch than add weight. I refer to the old adage ... "the customer is not always right, but the customer is ALWAYS the customer".

Unfortunately, a very large number of anglers have been conditioned to look for, AND only accept, a "properly balanced" rod. While you can lead a horse to water, you won't necessarily make them drink. IF everything was sold "just as it is supposed to be", we would still be debating what that standard is.

I am sure that 1/2", 3/4" or even 1" will not make a difference that 98% of anglers will notice. However, I am 100% sure that those anglers insisting on a "properly balanced" rod will take their money elsewhere IF we don't provide what they are willing to pay for.

The original post was directed toward adding weight. I offered what I consider to be a MUCH lesser "evil", if you will. My comments stand - weak, inexperienced or otherwise.

My current favorite rod is a 7'6" spinning rod with a split rear grip. With no reel mounted, it balances about a foot up from the center of the reel seat. With reel mounted, the balance point is about 3 1/2 inches up from the center of the seat. When retrieving a lure, I would guess that it balances somewhere way in front the center of the seat, maybe even out "in space" beyond the end of the tip, depending on lure weight, lure drag, and speed of retrieve. My point is that rod balance is not static. Unless the rod is ridiculously tip heavy, I would never notice the difference, in normal use. Intuitively, I believe that a rod that is slightly tip heavy casts a little farther. My intuition, however, may be entirely wrong. I do like the fact that I have made a very light rod that is a joy to cast all day.

George Forster
Fort Collins, CO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 07:05AM by George Forster.

I (and my customers) will pick the lightest rod every time. Like I realize that tournament bass anglers look at a rod differently than the average angler and there is nothing wrong with that, BUT just because it's right for them Doesn't mean that it's right for all (or even a majority of) anglers!!!

I build probably 80% of my rods with split grips and that's what my customers prefer and the main reason is less weight and looks.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Jim Gamble: I think you have defined your primary interest in inshore spinning rods. The advice in the post by Rich Forhan is exactly on target for those whose primary interest is bass rod bait casters. That is the specific area where split grips, no foregrip and RF Lite seats were introduced by Rich Forhan several years ago. All of these concepts were to reduce weight and increase performance. The racks in stores are full of rods - most of the seats have been fudged forward so they feel better - they also say the customer is always right - the opportunities for a custom builder who can make improvements and produce a better rod have no limits. Most anglers will listen if the custom builder can bring some information to the table that will improve his fishing experience.

Bass rod seat position is for casting and fish control purposes. In the case of an experienced angler, it is very specific and in most cases is not related in any way to balance. Shoving the seat out for balance purposes, in some cases, will cost fish. Bass rods should be built as light as possible for many reasons. Weights should not be added on tip down techniques Weights are added for heavy application rods, tip up, when angler fatigue use during the day on the water wears the angler out. Custom rods are built for specific purposes. Many of the top knotch Elites are able to handle "beast" eight foot flip sticks all day with 8.5 inch rear grips and would never consider adding weight to the back end. If the co-angler sitting in the back of the boat wants to keep up and fish all day he better have some balance help on the back end of the rod.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 09:21PM by Bill Stevens.

The tournament guys that I build for want the lightest rod they can get. I have removed weights from several rods that were balanced perfectly balanced because the rods were too heavy. They didn't know there was weight added but they knew the rod wore their arm out after fishing all day. They also don't want the seat moved up. They want all the rod they can get, they figure that what is sticking under their arm is wasted.

Alex - thanks. You may not see me - but I'm here - when I'm home - it's email, here, and Google. I don't post much - because I don't need to - you guys are good. Just look at Bill's second post - WOW! What could I possibly add to that!

It's been over 35 years since I fished my first Bass tournament against Dee Thomas, Dave Gleibe, Gary Klein and the best in the West - I had about 3 bass rods and beat them all into the dirt - because I recognized that proper technique will triumph over proper tools (rods, reels, boats, etc.) every time. They had the best tools of their time, I did not. You don't want to know how many bass rods I have now - I just hope my wife doesn't sell them when I'm gone for what I tell her I have in them! (over 60 Custom rods by me)

It took me a few years of off and on tournament fishing to step into the arena of developing better tools. My focus had been family, flying and then bass fishing - it hasn't changed. What I did for tools of the trade (jigs, hooks, rods), I did for Klein and his life in Bass fishing - it started when he was in high school and no one was encouraging him to follow his dream - but me. I advised him to "do what you love, take what you get" - go EAST young man (Bass Anglers Sportsmans Society tournaments) and don't come back until you're BROKE! He left - and has never returned - except to visit family or fish BASS elite tournaments in the West.

It took me quite a while to get off the freebe train of rods, reels, & tackle - start from scratch - with knowledge as my guide and try to make better tools. I did.
The Revolver Rods and Competition spinning I developed stepped away from what was sold in the stores - I didn't care - but I knew what I had done would make obsolete every bass rod in every tournament boat in the country - it was just a matter of time.

The no fore-grip, split grip, modified reel seats I developed and added to the spiral wrap will be cussed and discussed for a long time - until they become the standard and the new generation of bass anglers won't be able to remember when bass rods were any different. Success will have many fathers - failure is an orphan.

would someone tell me what issue of rod maker the split grip article is in. i would like to read it thanx ricky

Mr. Forhan, I always enjoy your posts. Thanks for sharing. Your seminar in 2009 was awesome, and too short. This is still my favorite finesse rod - [www.rodbuilding.org]

I pretty much agree with everything Alex and Rich say, and most of what Bill Stevens says - the parts I can understand that is (grin). I'm surprised someone didn't mention that the split is a great place for a decal and a hook keeper.

Chuck

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 09:00PM by Chuck Mills.