Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> A rod blank that must be fished along one certain
> axis for any reason whatsoever, is a very poorly
> designed instrument. We don't fish that way - at
> least I don't.


So that also pretty much squashes the big benefit of the spiral wrap... if it's on all planes, torque is generated 360 degrees.

-----------------
AD

I need a little more information. When you swing a golf club - the shaft will rotate/torque on the backswing plane and flex at the top. Then on the downswing it changes its rotation, or torque and proceeds down the plane to impact. The last 90degrees the club squares up very quickly which torques the shaft hard. After contact the club finishes its flex, the club continues into the backswing and continues to rotate to the finish. The difference I see between a golf club and a fishing rod is mainly rotation and torque. I do understand your point that ideally you want the club head at the same point at impact, unless like Emery said, you are trying to draw or cut the ball.

I've played a lot of golf for most of my life and beat thousands of balls. That's why I'd rather be fishing with my sons.

Todd

Tom's quote: "A rod blank that must be fished along one certain axis for any reason whatsoever, is a very poorly designed instrument."

I would reply that a rod blank that must be built on one axis is a poorly manufactured part..

I know of three production builders who build on "spine" using conventional sized guides. The blanks they utilize are straight enough to pass the "sight line" acceptance of the consumer.

The use of micro guides on some of these blanks will not allow spine builds without lessening customer visual appeal. Any small deviation on the blank will be magnified by the smaller guides.

One of the production builders who builds all rods with conventional guides on spine is Castaway. Their process is rather unique and is performed when the seat is installed.

It still boils down to OPINION!!!! Just because a production company does it doesn't mean that it is beneficial!! All rhetoric/opinion aside, there is no factual evidence to confirm that spining is relevant to the real fishing world than "they do it" or "it works"

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Alex,

Not at all. Unless you are fishing for flying fish, your quarry remains somewhere below the rod most of the time. So having the guides underneath the rod continues to lessen the tendency of the rod to twist or torque because the guides are already that much closer to facing the direction the load is coming from. Any twist or torque will be considerably less than if the guides had been on top of the rod.

It is the lever arm effect of the guides that trumps the spine effect and any related arguments.

.....................

Many may be missing one of the major aspects of this topic. The issue is not governed by opinion or what anyone thinks about spine orientation. The issue of my concern is the economical decisions made every day by blank manufacuters and their customers. All know that blanks are made by people and the resultant product has finite quality control parameters. Some go in the trash pile, most go to production builders and others are reserved for the "picky" custom builders. Now there is an increased level of "picky" due to the smaller foot print of the micro guide

How many have ever heard the terms "blank quality" and "rod quality" as it is related to the rating of blanks. These terms are used daily by those who design, manufacture, inspect, sell blanks and build rods. The QC level determines price of the blank you use.

If you were running a company that produced 5,000 parts made by human beings that were all different and wanted to use as many of the parts as possible for various markets to insure a profit. Any product must meet the needs of the potential customer. The price point differences between blank quality vs rod quality is substantial. At one time loss of tip tack, Z tips and bowed blanks would have quickly rejected. I think the degree of bow accepted is increased by the builder who now expect blanks to be routinely bowed. I can assure you one thing - build belly down and have the rod come back two months later belly up will cause a lot of concerns for all.

The blank manufacturers know why blanks have production anomolies which cause bowed blanks. I sure wish all blanks could be built much straighter so they would pass the visual QC of the rod purchaser. There is a point where "belly down" builds may insure the custom builder goes "belly up".

There are people who work as blank designers watching this thread. I sure wish they would let all us "dummies" in on what they know.

This forum topic was initiated by one of the premier blanks manufacturers.

If none respond I can only assume that they feel that any provided information would not be appropriate nor well received.

Mike factual evidence may be found in strange places. Most of it is normally proprieatary. Do you think there is a difference in the warranty rate of returns for spinning rods vs casting rods? What angle is high sticking normally done?

If you want to compensate for guide weight (which is less now than ever before) then you have to start with a blank with some amount of natural curve in it. To build on a blank "belly down" and have it suddenly become "belly up" only indicates a very poor product. That just doesn't happen with a quality blank.

While most of us would prefer perfectly straight blanks, once you add guides to them they'd no longer be straight.

I suspect that Jon's comment about "having an eye for the spline" was just an off the cuff remark meant to indicate that Chuck had built a nice rod. It really had nothing to do with the spine one way or the other.

.....................

The comment "belly down" to "belly up" refers to another production glitch - improperly cured blanks normally oven temp cycle errors.

I eagerly await the NFC response.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2010 09:40AM by Bill Stevens.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alex,
>
> Not at all. Unless you are fishing for flying
> fish, your quarry remains somewhere below the rod
> most of the time. So having the guides underneath
> the rod continues to lessen the tendency of the
> rod to twist or torque because the guides are
> already that much closer to facing the direction
> the load is coming from. Any twist or torque will
> be considerably less than if the guides had been
> on top of the rod.
>
> It is the lever arm effect of the guides that
> trumps the spine effect and any related arguments.
>
>
> .....................

I disagree (in regards to bass fishing). I can show you plenty of times where the retrieve of both fish and lure would be equivalent to your "flying fish" - basically reversing the spiral and turning it back into an on top build. Now you've actually created more torque by building on spiral. Different discussion though.

-----------------
AD

In that case, put the guides on top of the blank.

The argument over supposed spine importance is still moot because it is the lever arm effect of the guides that determine if a rod is going to twist or by how much, not spine orientation.

............

I've played around - truly written "played around" with blank design for about a year from purchasing, rolling, impregnating(saturating), celo wrapping,oven curing, sanding blanks. I tried different patterns for the prepeg (raw densities/compositions) and different 'flagging' designs for roll up on the mandrel (triangle, double triangle, cross-cut/inletted triangle). Every step along the way is another place for change - good and bad with "bad" on the 70% side of the scale. What I learned from this is a great deal of respect for the people who work on the design side of making fishing rods. These people are amazing. Mathematics and Chemistry are big factors as is computer modeling. I was hoping that one/two of the designers would have the time to bring us all up to speed on the advances in the technology however, I also understand that there is R&D MONEY involved and that there are proprietary issues so we may be left with opinion. One thing is certain no rod blank today is going to fail if the guides are / are not on a "spine".

I think Tom is correct as far as the intent of the blog post. When I was there, Jon and Brad made much of the fact that I got those micros lined up dead on. And I think Mike B is also correct in his statement about opinion. I've never seen any data to support any of this.

In a podcast Gary explained that rolling the blanks under such extreme pressure made it harder to get a straight blank. I don't understand the physics or procedure so I'll take his word for it. I build for customers so my rods are going to look straight when the customer holds it up and sights down towards the tip.

Let's go fish!

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

Tom,
This is really off of the subject of rod building but hitting a golf ball so that it will hook or fade is every bit as proper as hitting it so that it will go straight if that is what is intended and the swing that results in those flights of the ball is every bit as "properly swung".

Jim,
I think that you are right, it is nearly impossible to build a perfect shaft but I have looked at some graphite golf club shafts that had almost no spine or at least a spine that was so slight that I could not find it.

Emory Harry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jim,
> I think that you are right, it is nearly
> impossible to build a perfect shaft but I have
> looked at some graphite golf club shafts that had
> almost no spine or at least a spine that was so
> slight that I could not find it.


Yep. Occasionally, we manage to find a rod blank that has the same characteristics. It seems as though the blanks are getting less perfect over time. IMO, the technology exists for them to be straighter and with less "spine". I wonder if time and cost cutting measures have taken a toll on the overall quality that exceeds other advancements.

Tom,
Don't you think that it is misleading to remove your post after someone has responded to it?

For anyone who might be interested and hasn't had the opportunity to visit one of the manufacturers (says bamboo but it's not):

[www.upon-bamboo-fly-fishing-rods-and-reels.com]

Not a single post has been removed from this thread - neither mine nor anyone else's. There are two pages worth - check back on the first page.

................

Tom,
You are correct and I am wrong. The post that I thought that you had removed was on the first page. I apologize.

No problem. It was a lengthy thread and it's easy to miss one that occurred earlier.

......................

Ken
That link to that post answered a question some one had here about leaving a rod in a hot car :

TIP Don't leave a fishing rod in the back of a car. Overheating will soften the resin and change the properties of the rod!

here is another I just found :

TIP So, for beginner rod builders, stay away from top modulus blanks and rather take a mid-range modulus. -- Hmmmm

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2010 11:28AM by bill boettcher.