Is a silk wrapped and epoxied guide any weaker than any other wrap? Would anyone be opposed to wrapping a 10-12wt salt flyrod with silk? I have never used silk and was just wondering.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2010 01:53PM by Larry Damore.

Better than rayon or polyester, not as good as nylon. Lots of bamboo fly rods out there in service with 80+ years of use on them. The only drawback is that silk will rot so cover it well. As for "strength" I think it's plenty strong enough to do the job



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2010 01:59PM by Ken Preston.

i bought 4 spools of Fish hawk 000 white 100 % silk

Just putting it around my fingers and checking pull strengths I myself - would not use it on any heavy saltwater rods I found this to be a lot weaker then white Nylon

Buy a spool and test it your self

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,
I've used 2/0 silk which is slightly smaller than Size A and has about the same strength, so I would not be surprised that you found 3/0 to be weaker than nylon. I agree with you that on heavier saltwater rod, I wouldn't use 3/0.

Mike Blomme

Here is a link to silk thread at reasonable prices. The link will send you to 100wt silk thread. 50wt silk thread is roughly equivalent to Size A nylon. In addition to silk you can also find many other types (poly, nylon, metallic)and manufacturers (YLI, Guterman, Superior,,Clover) thread through this merchant . I should have provided a more complete answer the first time.

[www.redrockthreads.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2010 06:43PM by Ken Preston.

I have a 8 wt and 9 wt fly rod made of silk only thread. These rods have seen their fair share of steelhead, redfish, etc action with no issue. Silk is one of the strongest natural fibers in the world and can hold up to many tasks although I have never heard of using it on a 12 wt rod! It breaks easier than nylon since it has no stretch but once wrapped, it is plenty strong.
Redrocks has been a player in the retail world for sometime. They offer no special deal and do not support the rod builder in any way. Silk is always twice as much as nylon but in 3/0 thread you get 200m versus 100m with nylon. I would only recommend a nylon made exclusively for rod building as it contains no silicone and is properly twisted for the rod building process. Redrocks does not offer rodbuilding nylon.

Silk and metallics are my favorite threads by far. I would not be opposed to using a silk to wrap a 10-12 wt but would lean more to a silk A or D. Silk will treat you right if you have a nice blank underneath. It will turn translucent if no CP is used and the blank below can be seen.....which I like.

One of the things I love about this site is diversity of backgrounds of the members and the knowledge they bring - and it compels me to learn more about a wide range of topics I previously had no reason to look into. After doing some on-line reading which I understand does not make me an expert. I'm left with a question . What is "properly twisted thread"? I read about "S" and "Z" twist and I understand how they are used to balance swing thread to keep it from fraying and the application of twists per inch but I didn't find anything differentiating "rod building thread" from any other nylon thread (absent bonding and lubricating agents that are added for commercial ,high speed, machines) used for sewing. So is there such a product as "rod building nylon" or is it a product /marketing definition denoting a thread that is confirmed to have no additives or lubricants?

There is a difference between rod building nylon and regular nylon and I will give an example from which I have had personal experience. Rice at one time offered rod winding nylon. This was a thread that was designed and twisted for embroidery applications but there was no silicone used in the dye bath so it became compatible for rod building.
FishHawk produces a nylon thread which is twisted exclusive for rod builders. It is made so the wraps stack/pack better and consistently. There is a certain number ( I cannot provide the number ) of twists per inch to achieve this effect. This thread is used in no other markets and is made exclusively for rod builders.
NCP , Opaque, and Color Lok threads are also made only for rod builders. Most nylons are translucent and light can pass through the thread and affect the dye. Chalk is added to the dye bath so light can no longer pass through the material, thus no CP is required. Eliminating the CP process is very popular for OEM`s building thousands of rods. This type of thread is made only for rod builders and is not used in any other industries.

Don't get me wrong, the Fish Hawk nylon thread is great. So are the rest of there line. I just don,t think I would want to use the 000 silk . ???

Bill - willierods.com

I suppose this is like so much else in rodbuilding. You get used to a certain type product, or process, and that becomes your favorite.
For me, my favorite thread is Coates and Clark Trilobal polyester. The reason I first experimented with it was the ease of obtaining it. There are several fabric stores within a few miles that have this, in a pretty wide range of color. To get "official" rodbuilding thread takes me a few days, and there is nothing as good as going in the store and laying your eyeballs on the product, to see the actual color.
I've used many spools of this, in many colors, and have never had any issues with fisheyes, so I don't think it is coated with silicone. And, I sorta disagree with Ken's post about, about polyester being on the weaker end of the strength spectrum. Of course, breaking strength depends on many factors (denier, twist, etc.), but, size for size, polyester and nylon have about the same ultimate tensile strength.
They do have different elongation profiles, though (I deal with this every day in my day job, conveyor belting). Nylon elongates (stretches) under load, but recovers, so long as the elastic load limit is not surpassed. Polyester has very little elongation under load. Both will break, once a certain load is reached, but the nylon stretches a lot first. You can see evidence of this when wrapping.
Another difference is that nylon is hygroscopic, and polyester is not. Nylon absorbs water, and increased dimensionally (lengthens). Polyester doesn't do this. This is really apparent when you do a butt wrapp of both nylon and polyester thread. If you apply a water based CP, the nylon thread temporarily gets a lot looser until it dries
I never figured all the weird stuff I've learned at work for years would ever come in useful in day to day life!.

Ok we're well off "will silk work" but here's a link for anyone interested in technical characteristics of nylon thread Tables I and VII apply most directly


[www.everyspec.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2010 02:07PM by Ken Preston.

For my weaves I use silk. I buy it from a sewing thread site. I use "Machine Twist". It is almost as big a dia. as "A". It is very strong as I pull very hard to get any slack out of the weave. I always use a CP since I want the color selected to stay that color to match what I am trying to duplicate. One weave in particular in the Magazine, a long time ago, back when the photos just went to color is my Sturgeon weave that was done in silk.

Polyester is NOT equal ....(extract)
There are 3 different types of Polyester Thread available.

Spun Polyester Thread
Spun polyester threads are made by spinning or twisting together shorter lengths of polyester fibers. This is similar to the way cotton threads are made. These are then twisted together to produce a thread of the desired size. Spun polyester threads give the look of a cotton thread, but provide superior strength and durability.

Filament Polyester Thread
Filament poly is a continuous fiber thread. Some hear the word filament and incorrectly assume it is monofilament. Monofilament, which looks like fishing line, is just one type of filament thread. It is a single strand thread. Other filament threads are multiple filaments, which consist of two or three strands twisted together. This is the largest category of filament polyester. Multi-filament strands are smooth and lint free but are not transparent. The advantage of a lint-free thread is a cleaner machine and less maintenance.

Trilobal Polyester Thread
Recent advances in fiber technology have resulted in a new type of polyester. In the past, due to it's dull appearance, polyester lost out to other fibers, especially rayon. However, with the development of trilobal polyester, rayon thread may become a thread of the past.

Trilobal poly is a multiple filament, twisted, high-sheen continuous fiber thread. It has the bright appearance of rayon or silk. Triangular shaped fibers reflect more light and give an attractive sparkle to textiles. If the desired effect is strength, durability, softness, and brightness, trilobal poly is perfect for the job.