I am having trouble with some epoxy failure on some Muskie blanks that I am building for some friends of mine. I have maybe a dozen rods under my belt the last 5 years and have not had any trouble until some friends of mine asked me to build some high end rods for our Lake of the Woods trip we make every year. The first year the finish failed almost immediately so I rebuilt them this summer. I started this years trip with brand new thread and epoxy(Flex Coat epoxy, D thread and CP, underwrapped guides). The wraps around the guides made it through the week but they developed milky areas that I can peel off around the guide feet. I am really at a loss, I felt I did a good job of tooling the guides, I am machine wrapping the rods at a constant tension, everything "looks" great until use, I am way past the little hiccups in winding quaility that we all have when we start but frankly this is getting embarrassing. The last two years this has kind of been a last minute project, the rods have cured for about a week before use, was wondering that maybe a heavy use, high stress use rod throwing big bucktails might need more curing time? Am I having mixing troubles that are only showing up on heavy use equipment? I bought syringes from Mudhole to make sure my measuring was dead on. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, as I have said, I am at a loss.
Thanks

I'm sort of at a loss as well, because nothing you're doing jumps out at me as being problematic. A week is generally enough time for any epoxy to cure, unless the rods are curing at a temperature that is below about 50F.

Milky spots are generally the result of water or moisture getting under the finish. Are you extending your epoxy a little bit beyond the edges of the thread wraps?

...............

I was worried about that also, really overdid it this time and tried to cover the foot under the guide as good as I could, it was part of the reason I underwrapped the guides this time, to make sure I had finish around the foot.

How long are you letting the CP dry before finishing?

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

Dry to the touch , over night some times, depends on where I am at during the day.

I believe Flex Coat CP is water-based, as are several others. That could be a problem if it was not cured. Just a guess on my part.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

It is water based and that is as good a guess as I have heard so far, I have suspected the CP but not all of the guides seem to fail, the ones on the tips seem to fail more often. Does anybody recommend a brand or should I switch to NCP thread and attack it from that angle.

I wonder if the cp extends beyond the epoxy line on the wrap. Otherwords, if the cp is 1/4 inch beyond the wraps and the epoxy is only 1/8 inch beyond the wraps could moisture be seeping between the blank and the cp to form the milky areas?

Ohio Rod Builders

Canton, Ohio

I guess I don't know, I have never really worried getting CP on the blank before, I am usually fairly liberal then clean up the edges with the rod in the dryer with a paper towel. I am only trying to get just beyond thread with finish, it is possible I could benefit from extending my finish line out beyond a little further. I have also worried about thread tension, I can move the guides after wrapping/before finish, but not easily. Is this to loose?

Guide frames flex when under heavy load -

In a perfect world finish is flexible -

Finish can "haze" crack adjacent to risers on guide frames -

Fishing rods get wet -

Water can invade guide wraps in many ways -

If water gets under finish and aqueous based CP will be affected -

The appearance of a "milky" look is tell tale that moisture is getting to the thread.

The best way to STOP the problem is to omit color preserver.

Use the brightest color of all - black regular nylon

Read the information on the Flex Coat Site pertaining to the use of color preserver.

The color preserver is well hidden in my shop - just can not seem to find it when the color issue arises!

I think you are right, not much reason for a rod to look good if it flies apart

I don't think you are doing anything "wrong". The best posited answer so far seems to be uncured CP. I very, very much doubt that these rods are taking the beating than the rods I build for charter captains (trolling, jigging, bottom bouncing, drifting for fluke/flounder). From your description of guide wrap tension I see nothing wrong there either.

No, I would agree. A weeks worth of throwing around 2 oz buck tails on quality rods made for the task(ST. Croix and Loomis blanks) is hardly to much to ask for finish to hold up to. And I have said the same thing to myself, a deep sea rod takes 10 times the abuse these rods do. I really appreciate the comments and help, I have yet to meet someone else who does this, I just read a book and decided it was something to do over the winter, it is really cool to visit with guys who understand what I am talking about.

Also when you CP the under wrap - Do Not GO over the thread and onto the blank.

Let dry at least overnight. If cool, longer.
Then when you finish the top wraps CP only to the thread wrap END not onto the blank

When finish is applied - then go over the CP and cover it and onto the blank.

This prevents water from going under the wraps and causing moisture to get sucked into the threads.

Bill - willierods.com

Just perchance, are you filling the tunnels alongside the guide foot with CP and epoxy? If not, this is more than likely where any moisture is entering the wrap.

For what its worth - I have musky rods out there and they have CP. No problems reported. I used old Gudebrod 811 on them. I hear Cason's Crystal Clear is a near match, and I have some on order to try it.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

How long do you let the CP cure?

Is Cason's a close match to 811 ??? If so i will get some ???

Bill - willierods.com

Several hours to overnight, but keep in mind that I am in the basement in MN with the central air on and I can leave Permagloss on foil and it is still wet in two hours. Last night, when I went to cut thread on my thread carriage, the slack thread was over an inch away and was drawn to my scissors like a magnet by the static electricity. Short answer - it's really dry down there.

(Permagloss is a moisture cure product)

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2010 03:51PM by Chuck Mills.

That's what I read here bill. Seems it was developed out of need when 811 passed away - if I recall the threads on the subject.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane