I'm working on a Rainshadow IP903 Inshore Popping spinning rod. Redfish, trout, snook and tarpon. Long casts are the goal. I'll static test but am looking for some help. 8 guides are suggested, and I'd like to get away with 6 or even 5. Max line will be 10# braid or maybe less. Casting shimp under popping corks, light spoons and top water in skinny water.

The plan is to go 30, 25, 16 or 10, and 6 to the tip. If I just follow what the test tells me will I be OK, pushing for as few guides as possibe?

Thanks everybody. I'll stick with my familiar bass rod near the mangroves, but there's a lot of open water where everyone seems to reach better with a spinning rig so I've gotta give it a shot.

You don't need all those sizes nor such large guides. You would be better off using more guides, but smaller and lighter ones.

For #10 braid you could easily start with a high frame size 20, skip to something like a high frame 12 and then go on down to 4's on out to the tip (set up so the line path is straight - my suggested guide sizes are guesses). The result would be a rod that even with 8 guides would more far more responsive, more sensitive and balance better than what you propose above.

.............

Greg,
If you didn't care about the rod loading, you could go down to one guide about 2 feet from the reel.

But, as Tom suggested, you can add more if you want the rod to load better and cast better.

If you want to stay with the size 30, I would simply omit the size 25.

If you want to run large knots with leaders and or swivels, I would likely stay with the size 6 guides. Yes, 4's will handle the line just fine, but if you ever start running big knots, leaders, and or swivels, or slip bobber knots, the size 4's will tend to foul the line.

You can just tape on some different sized and or number of rods and take it outside and do some test casting with the type line you would like to use, along with the weight of the typical bait, and or lure, hooks, etc. on the end of the line.
Just simulate the terminal tackle you intend to use with a single weight and do some casting.

Change things, move guides, remove guides, change guide sizes until you have the rod with the action doing what you want for both casting as well as retreiving line.

The IP903 is a fine blank, and not too fast. As a result, you won't have to space your tip guides too close together, as would be the case with a faster tipped blank and still properly load the blank.

Good luck

Roger

Position your grip and reel seat. Measure the distance from the reel to the tip to find the effective rod length.
Conservative number of guides is 1 per foot plus 1guide plus tip top.
A more aggressive is 1 guide per foot plus tip top. If you choose to light line the blank ( approx 70% of rating ) this will work well.
An even more agressive approach would be 1 guide pre foot minus 1 guide plus tip top. I personally wouldn't go further than this. This will be harsher on the line and blank stress will be higher. I would suggest you reduce line or drag setting to approx 50% the blank rating.
Keep the top 2 or 3 guides light preferably titanium. Consider the possibility of guide replacement for rebuild allowing the use of non-inserted guides for further weight reduction. Accept this as the penalty for high preformance.
Consider the use of a fly rod tip top with oversize loop and replace when grooves become a problem. Once again performance comes at a price.
Let me know your effective rod length and the number of guides you require and I'll give you some progressive guide spacing.

Eugene Moore

Gents,
I have to agree with Tom on the guides. Especialy with #10 or less braid. No memory on the line will allow itto run straight and smooth. If iam building rods for someone that is running with light braid I start with a high frame 16 and end with 4's or even 2's. I took the idea when I built some prototypes for a friend of mine and thouroughly enjoyed the action and castabiity.

Tight lines,

John

Cannot go wrong with this.. [www.rodbuilding.org]

Greg;
I too would suggest following Mr. Kirkman's advice. There has been much testing over the last five years by builders on this site using setups similar to what he suggests with outstanding results.

You will get better performance using more small guides then fewer larger guides.
If it were my rod; the setup of choice would be to use 8 guides as the minimum and most likely 9 guides plus the tip.



Roger
Would you explain to me when a person tells you the max size line he is going to use is10 lb.
How you can get “big knots” “that will tend to foul the line”?
Especially since there are hundreds of posts on this forum with builders sharing that they use 4mm guides and DO NOT have problems with knots passing through 4mm guides?
Even 10 braid to 20 or 25 lb mono leaders does not force a person to use “big knots”

What kinds of knot due you tie?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2010 10:24PM by Steve Gardner.

Greg,

I fish for the same species, I built most of my 7' spinning rods with 6 or 7 guides starting with size 30 as you suggested. They work ok, but i found myself having to go with titanium to reduce weight. I recently built a couple of rods using the New Concept Guide System Peter referenced above. I think I'm a believer. Smaller, lighter guides, that seem to cast better. It doesn't suck that it's cheaper using smaller guides as well. I still use a little bigger guides than what is suggested above. I went 25, 16, 10 and (5) size 7 for my last rod. I may try smaller next time. Baby steps....... I think the knot problem may preclude using much smaller than size 6 for my applications.

If I can answer Steve for you, I generally use a 50 lb. mono shock tippet for tarpon and snook, so the knots can get a little too bulky for really small guides. I generally use a knot that cinches right on the mono, no knots at all in the mono. It can still hang up coming in, but fine going out.

Not and nor ... you must have had a good English teacher. I'm impressed, but more so by your advice on which way to go. What are your thoughts on single foot titanium fly guides once I reach the reduction? I've done that on a spiral bass rod and have not had any issues, but I don't know about long term.

Makes sense, and thanks. I like the idea of a smaller 1st guide. Looks like I'm back to the wallet.

Thanks. Spacing on the tip being further apart is something I am hoping to achieve.

Thanks. I've used some of the micros on bass rods and you are right. Coming in is sometimes an issue. I've found if I point the rod at the line at the end of the retrieve it helps. When you get above 30 you have a good sized knot, my reason for the 6's. I will need to go to the Ti guides to take advantage of this rod though.

Thanks to all for the ideas. I was going in the wrong direction. I really like the feel of the blank and I want to get all it has to offer.

Thanks. When I get further along I'll give you the actual working part of the rod.

Not to start a war but I'm always amazed when I go to Cabelas and on the high end rods there , I've never seen a factory GLoomis, St Croix, or whatever spinning rod follow the length plus one for guide numbers. Fly rods yes, but not spinning. In fact, I see alot of 6 & 7 guide setups on 8 footers. Tom did a blank destruction test awhile back and I don't remember the details but I thought it confirmed the areas where blanks failed, suggested I don't need as many guides on spinning rods as I once thought. I even posed a question asking if I tried to "dead lift" a particular spinning rod, where would it eventually break and was told probably right in front of the reel seat/handle - seems like whether I had +1, same, or -1 guides per length would be a moot point. My latest spinning projects have been 1 guide per foot and one was -1 guide guide per foot and I haven't broke them yet battling Salmon.

Greg, you might consider the american tackle NIRLF series. Hard to beat for the price. I'm pretty sure I have enough different sizes (in alconite) so you can get it set up and then order the sizes you want. Ideally you will need the reel you intend to use.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Greg;
Thanks for the answer and clearing that up.

Being a bass fisherman, I’ve always gone the other direction with stronger main lines to lighter leaders, preferring to lose a leader than have it break further up.

Had no clue that people would tie 50 lb leaders to 10 lb line. In that case I would probably stay with 6mm runners also.

I’ve always gone the other direction with stronger main lines to lighter leaders, preferring to lose a leader than have it break further up.

Just finished rods for the family that fit that bill.

All with Shimano 2500's 10# braid, guides 16, 8, 6, 4's out to the tip. Casts unweighted plastics and small spoons fantastic, and to my surprise, no wind knots. The no wind knots seem to be the biggest plus for me, kids are fishing more and I am taking out less knots.

Steve Gardner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Greg;
> Thanks for the answer and clearing that up.
>
> Being a bass fisherman, I’ve always gone the
> other direction with stronger main lines to
> lighter leaders, preferring to lose a leader than
> have it break further up.
>
> Had no clue that people would tie 50 lb leaders
> to 10 lb line. In that case I would probably stay
> with 6mm runners also.
>
> I’ve always gone the other direction with
> stronger main lines to lighter leaders, preferring
> to lose a leader than have it break further up.


Steve,
The reason for the heavier leaders is abrasion and teeth.
Long fights, shell bottoms, sharp gill covers and teeth are the norm in SW fish. Depending on the species, it's not uncommon to need a new leader on every couple of fish.

The knot is still the leak link in the chain. Nine times out of ten the leader will break at the knot.

Greg
Thanks. Spacing on the tip being further apart is something I am hoping to achieve.

IMHO this is not good The tip is the most flexible part of a rod and needs more guides to - Protect It - from breakage. All or most rods have the tip top guides closer together and as you go to the butt the spacing gets larger

Bill - willierods.com