Still mulching over this (yes, I sometimes mulch). The CCS takes the guess work out of power, action, and minimum/maximum casting weight in order to load well, but we still have these wildly fluctuating line rating systems (spinning and casting). I asked most of the American blank manufacturers for some numbers on breakage point and all but one downright refused, two threatened legalities over attempting to place a number on "their" blank. Those with the idol threats got an earful about their blank becoming my blank once money was exchanged and my responsibilities to my customers, but it did no good. I will mention that Batson was the only manufacturer who was cordial and understanding about the request.

I'm working on standardizing something for myself here, not proposing anything for the masses. I'm asking for thoughts, as the years of experience on this board is worth far more in my book than most manufacturers' line rating schemes, especially given my recent experiences.

I like the fact that Lamiglass posts that, under their ratings, the line will snap before the blank at angles less than 45 degrees from parallel. That's a step in the right direction, albeit very thin in the data department (they say nothing about actual versus rated line strength). We know that we gain little additional pulling power by exceeding 90 degrees deflection and that anything over 90 is tempting fate. We also know that most blanks will experience 90 degrees deflection at some point and should be expected to handle this load. What are your thoughts on completing the rod, loading to 90 with a spring scale, in line, while supporting at the fore grip (or forward-most grip point), and setting the maximum actual line break strength to one pound over this? Since we're in dangerous waters by exceeding 90 anyway and have little to gain by exceeding this (if the rod manages to keep from snapping), it seems the logical place to draw the line in the sand (no pun intended). At least it's consistent, measures the completed rod with its actual components in place, accounts for variance due to the hands-on manufacturing process, and doubles as a good stress test.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 01:14PM by Jason Cosby.

What do you expect to accomplish with all this? Fishing and fishermen has so many variables in applications and techniques I'm thinking the data will end up being meaningless to all but the very technically inclined. Data on line strengths is not absolute so how would one equate a rod breaking point from one batch of line to another, or one brand to another?

Please don't take offense, as I am interested in how the results of your study would be applied to rod building!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 03:04PM by Phil Erickson.

Jason I truly understand your desire in all this. That said I feel braid has changed the picture. Many of the Japanese rods and reels label by line diameter. What breaking test that amounts to depends on the price of the line.

I can only tell you what I do. I look at what pound test I'm going to use and figure what my actual maximum drag setting would ever be. That is the very least that I'd static test a rod at. To make matters tougher I'll place the rod at about a 30-45 degree angle as I feel that is how many actually hold a rod when a fish is taking line.

Now there are other builds I take much further. It has to do with my fishing style. I fish rather light line for the fish I encounter and do a lot of testing to develop a feel for just how far I can push things before my line/knots break. I also have a very good idea of what my capabilites are in real life conditions. I know I can't fish more than about 25-30 pounds of drag tops and if seas are rough and it is a long battle 20-25 is tops. Given that there is little need for me to load a rod to fifty pounds as I can't hold that much. All this assumes I'm standing and using a simple fighting belt at most. I'm not one to fish from a chair.

So I'm more inclined to want my 15# class rods to dead lift 15 pounds because I can and will put that much pressure on a fish for brief moments. Typically the blanks used will be salt water rated and around 12-25 to 15-30 rating. Baston shared info with me too and their rclb line will handle close to the bottom of its rating under the worst possible high stick condition. Knowing that makes me a lot more comfortable tieing a bucket to the tip and filling with water untill I am sure I'm past my chosen line strength. Then I remove it from the holder and challenge someone to lift it themselves. Most are greatly surprised how hard it is to dead lift even 15 pounds and the majority can't do more than 30 pounds or so. I make them stand on a ladder (only one or two rungs) so they know how far they can go before line breakage will result in serious injury.

Once a rod is in the customer's hands you have no control over what line they use. Rarely do rods get broken from overloading. Most guys simply won't push a rod that hard even when told to at time of purchase. It is the guy that locks down his drag, keeps the rod in a holder, and uses the boat's motors to drag fish away from bottom structure that is a problem. That and of course highsticking. Still, ceiling fans, doors, trunks, power windows, etc account for the majority of breakage and has always been so.

I sure don't envy the bass rod builder who must deliver a complete rod weighing 4 ounces or less knowing the angler will spool up with 65# braid and set the hook like they do on those fishing shows!!

Oh, BTW if you are going to test to possible destruction make sure you have personal protection gear. I perfer to work outdoors and fill the bucket from a safe distance.

With braid the practice of overlining is common place. I'm even seeing gears and anti-reverse failures in reels as a result. I wouldn't trust one of the "cast aluminum" frame reels for this reason.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Phil,

The point is to establish at what point a line should break in order to prevent the blank from breaking. I don't believe the data would be meaningless even to the most uneducated angler. Maximum load is a pretty obvious trait that all are likely to consider, at least when purchasing line. Actual break strength of line is pretty absolute, with extremely little variance from one batch to another of the same line. I'd never consider equating one brand or rating of line to another. The only way to know any line's specific strength is to measure it.

Russell,

There's a lot of good info in there and thanks. You inadvertently illustrated one of my points, though, and that's why I cited Lami's approach to line. Drag setting is another animal in itself, though closely related. I believe, especially when it comes to customer's rods, that relying on the drag only to protect a rod is a mistake. I'm sure you've had times on the water where you thought, "Man, it's a good thing I didn't hook a monster during that...". "That" being the line wrapped around the reel, blank, guide, or tip, or anything else that negates the drag. For the same reason I don't consider knots in this equation. Line gets wrapped around things north of the knot(s) and negates the knot from any maximum strength calculation (some would calculate knots at less than 100% as the norm, though there are 100% knots out there). You bring up a lot of good points and there's certainly lots to cover in knots and drag, but here I'm in the hunt to pop the line before the blank. The example you give about a rod holder and boat motor being used to drag fish from cover is a great example. Foolish, yes, but sometimes the rod is put in similar situations unintentionally.

The 65# braid for largemouth is another illustrative point. I have a customer that's an old friend that I've been working on for a while over this. He spools 50# braid and locks his drag. He's hugely talented and going pro, but using his gear as designed is something he needs to work on (at least if he wants a warranty). I guess that qualifies me as the guy you don't envy! Another reason to be able to say, factually, "That rod is at its max at ___ pounds". It's that max that's the crux here.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

I think what Phil was pointing out is that 10lb test can be line that breaks at 20lbs, or line that breaks at 30lbs, and both would be correctly labeled as 10lb test. If you tested a dozen different brands or types of 10lb test lines for breaking strength, you'll likely get 10 different breaking strengths. "Test" means the line breaks at the rated number, or more. "Class" requires that the line break at the rated number, or below.

..............

Jason,
Maybe a better way to rate rods with respect to line strength would be:

Wimpy
Manly
Mucho

Leave it at that.
I think that a lure rating makes sense becuase it is a pretty good measure of the tip softness etc.
However, I don't think that a line rating makes a lot of sense simply because fishermen will use the line that works for them to throw the particular live bait, or artifical bait.

With the advent of braided line and the problems that fishermen had with very fine line digging into their reels, many of the fishermen that fish with me will commonly use 65 - 80 lb test line.

No issues at all using this line with even the lightest rod, as long as you don't use the rod to pull a stuck hook free.

I always suggest to fishing friends that if a routine rod set doesn't pull the hook free - the next thing to do is to lay the rod down, grab the line with a gloved hand and do what is necessary to free the hook, or break the line.
That way, the rod is out of the picture when it comes to working out snags.

Roger

Jason, thanx for your response! I guess I'm glad that I only build fly rods where what we think about is "tippet strength", and even for Steelhead it would be hard to have a rod fail due to too much strength in the tippet, unless of course the other end of the rod is in the hands of an idiot.

Thanks everyone for your input. I do measure lines and recommend based on these measurements, not what's on the label. This is the same concept as using the CCS when it comes to what it is designed to measure. I'm striving to remove more of the subjectivity and marketing from my world. What would be most helpful is any experience, insight, or opinion as to whether you feel loading to 90 degree deflection at a 45 degree angle would represent to you the maximum practical load a rod can or should handle.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

Have you ever considered leaving the line rating off - and while you are at it drop the lure weight also!

Why should the warranty of a casting or spinning rod be related to the line in any manner whatsoever.

Get this solved then we can work on the lure wt range -

Seems like the poor rod is blamed for the errors of line, lure and angler missuse!

Sell the right rod and warrant money back abuse or missuse when the Fat Lady Sings!

No, it's not even close. The 90 degree flex is not even close to the maximum deadlift amount a rod can handle until that 90 degree bend has progressively moved down to the area just in front of the reel seat or foregrip. With most fact action rods you'll hit 90 degrees pretty quickly and somewhere in the upper half of the rod. Until that flex has moved well down in the butt you're not even close to the limit the blank can handle, properly used.

................

Select any blank you wish rated up to 20# line.

I will tie on any brand 20# monofilament line to a reel and break that blank before the line parts!

Many anglers do not understand the word proper.

Load it improperly and it will snap like a twig!

Thanks Tom. Very usable information. I figured that 90 may have to move further down the rod, since I've hit 85 measuring AA, but I obviously haven't gotten up the nerve to start breaking things and was leery as to how far to push. I haven't gotten that far into a rod since fiberglass was king, but I sure did wallop some of those down into the grips. Sounds like about 3/4 deflection, but I'll do some testing and see where deflection works out with different applications and typical grip lengths.

Bill, just trying to make things as break proof as possible under proper usage. I've never used the supplied stickers, anyway, as I know too many are inaccurate. Tom's formula works well for determining lure range based on ERN. Education is definitely the name of the game!

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

I'm similar to Russell in that I fish very light tackle in terms of the species I target. My 20# gear is generally not similar to my buddy's 20# gear.

On a 20# outfit for example. I'm fishing 12-15# of measured drag on a 20-40# rod. This is awfully similar to most of my buddies 40# gear with a "locked down" drag. Learning the limitations of the blanks you use does take time as no quantitative data is advertised.

A little 16 inch snapper snapped a 50# class rod like a twig on me once in a split second. It was my fault for putting the rod in the holder with the line straight down while grabbing a drink for a second, but it showed me how very little effort is needed to break a rod in the right (or wrong) situation.

I hope some of the blank manufacturer's will chime in on this, but I've heard from two seperate sides on this.
1) Blanks are designed to withstand standard drag ratings on the given line rating (25-30% of the breaking strength of the line)
2) Blanks are designed to break the line before the blank within the given rating under optimal use conditions.

I cannot negate either one, nor can I support either one. I simply don't know, but what I will say, is there are a handful of fisherman who look entirely differently at things. There is no such thing as a standard drag rating with this style of fisherman. It is generally the big game, light tackle fisherman such as Russell and myself. I would say we are not the majority in terms of tackle use, but still there nonetheless.

That style listed above with light and ultralight tackle for monster fish is a whole different world. It's putting the whole scenario together, and pushing your entire tackle setup to the limit and still coming out on top. Yes I lose a lot of fish this way, but each one I do catch is that much more special than fishing a locked down drag. Sure a 12-20# rod can generally deadlift 20#, but usually falls short of an instantaneous speed run from a wahoo under that same drag setting.

This is the actual condition scenario you would really need the answer to.

How does the blank/rod react under a near instantaneous load equal to or greater than the breaking strength of the line? This is far far different from a simple dead weight lift.

Unless a line is IGFA certified it will break in excess of 10% over its rated "test," sometimes much higer than 10%. This allows advertisers/marketers to truthfully say, "Strongest #20 test line on the market." If you think about such claims they are patent nonsense, for 20 pounds is 20 pounds, by definition.
However, you may easily bring the breaking strength of a line down by tying a knot in it. A knot can easily reduce the breaking strength of a line by 50%, so a "meaningful line rating" can mean many things. Toss in the angle at which the load is applied to the rod and static versus surge load and it gets remarkably complex. It seems like creating a "meaningful line rating" would be a simple thing, but like most problems they are not as simple as they appear or they would have been solved long ago.

Good points Sean and Phil. I should have mentioned shock loads. I was looking into high speed trolling for wahoo. 15-20 knots, 3 pound sinker plus the weight of the lure, Mr. Wahoo moving upwards of 50 mph is the opposite direction, wire line with no stretch....you guys get the picture:)

It does seem strange that we all relate to a term like "line class" but acknowledge in the same breath that it means little to anyone other than the particular angler and his gear and fishing style.

12 to 15# drag on 20# huh Sean. You sir are a much braver man than I am. I suspect you are one that backs off the drag as needed. I'm the type to set at 25-33% range, know where 50% is, and use my educated thumb to add pressure when required. It would be fun to fish together sometime. Let me know if you ever plan a trip down here (keys, etc.)

Good luck with your quest Jason. I do feel there is something to be learned. In my limited experience I think your best bet is to get the customer to hold the rod as load is added and help him develop a feel for just how much pressure he is placing on his gear. My experiences suggest most have no accurate idea. If nothing else it will prove that locking down the drag with 65# braid makes no sense. No way he is going to dead lift 65 pounds. Doubt he can do half that.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Thanks guys for taking the time and the great input. I value it a great deal. You're coming at it from a salt perspective, so it's not surprising that you have a lot of experience with drags and hard runs. The bulk of the folk I deal with are freshwater, and some just plain don't like to use the drag. It's really frustrating on our end with people like that who want to drive "on the rims". That's part of the reason for this post.

It certainly matters at what angle load is applied, shock loads, etc, but I'm after something quite a bit simpler than that. Tom honed in on it pretty well. At 45 degrees to the water or less, the line needs to pop at or just beyond the bend described above. Actually, it was pointed out in a previous post that a shock load will pop the line at the same point a steady pull will, the only factor being amount of load. As for high sticking, there's nothing we can do there other than educate. The 16" snapper busting a 50# rated rod is a perfect example (I might even borrow it with your permission). So, that's the rating my customers will get: "fish anything up to and including ___ actual break strength", and I will continue supplying a sheet of tested lines with each rod. It's pretty painless to throw the rod in the tester when done and get a measurement, serves as a good quality control check, and is a whole lot more meaningful than what some marketer (in many cases) thought should be fished on the rod (or would sell more blanks).

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

I welcome you to use that example to your customers. My fishing buddy even told me don't put it there as he has 60degree rod holders. I had backed off the drag significantly, but it did not matter with the high stick situation I had created.

Russell, yes I push everything to the brink at the onset (trolling is the exception) and back off as needed. As you know with bottom species, the outcome is often determined during the first 15-20 seconds. I am also on a quest to break a world class grouper on lighter tackle than the above I listed. The 6kg record was beaten not far south of my fishing grounds less than 2 years ago.

With trolling, I am from down south where its light lever drags for the kings and sails, and increase as needed. They are preset to around 70% of breaking strength at full, and somewhere in the area of 30-40% at strike. Doing this, I know even an inexperienced angler can defeat a fish quickly, but never come close to necessitating perfect angling skill, whereas I must be perfect on every fish to catch them as even a minor mistake when your tackle is under extreme pressures can turn into a disaster in a split second. Anti-reverse failure is a big one I see a lot on gear that is not properly cared for.

I fish similar to you and Russell, Sean, on everything from panfish to monsters of the deep. I've got 4 Accurate reels and love them to death. I know that drag is a critical component in the equation, but I purposely steered clear of that for this discussion. I'll still cover drag in detail with folks, this thread only concerns worst case scenario where the drag is either locked down or not able to function. Spending the time here, then ensuring to avoid high sticking and properly setting and measuring drag should give the most unbreakable setup possible for the rod. Thanks again for all the great input. Lots of good info on drag and load that hopefully folks will find useful.

One thing that has certainly changed over the years is the way people choose line. It used to be, at least in my neck of the woods, that folks chose line based on break point (mono days), not what would haul up a boat anchor. It seems kind of foolish for line and blank manufacturers to include a line rating at all if people are just going to ignore it and fish whatever they want without regards to the system and the way it's designed to be used. Granted, those line ratings are wildly inaccurate and the reason for this post, but they still shouldn't be ignored. I'll do what I can to put a microscopic dent in this.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

When people have a rod rated for a high of 20 LB mono and put 50 LB braid on, then lock down the drag -- some thing has to give -- the rod

Bill - willierods.com

Bill, aside from that fact, 6-15# rated rod will often FAIL to break 15# class mono. This is sort of the idea we are getting at here which is why I tend to fish the lower end of the line class rating on most blanks.