The load on the rod is created by the weight of the line/lure and the input of the fisherman. If Tim will simply move up a line size or two, he will find that his fast action rods load and cast quiet nicely.

..............

The terms weight and mass are often used interchangeably but weight is the affect that gravity has on an object and has nothing to do with rod loading. Going up a line size or two will increase the mass which will increse the inertia

It is the simplest thing to do

A rod is a tubular - spring - which has to have a certain amount of weight - line or lure - so it loads on the back-cast, storing energy and then - springs - the line or lure fore-ward on the fore-ward cast.

Does not sound like rocket science to me.

Bill - willierods.com

Emory,

Yes, I think (hope) everyone knows that. Mass is constant, weight changes depending on where you are. But I think this is outside the realm of what Tim really wanted to know. The bottom line is that the lines he has on those fact action rods of his aren't allowing him to easily load the rod. If he just moves up a size or two his problem will be solved and his question answered.

.........

Emory Harry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If you add mass to the rod as Bill Hanneman is suggesting you should understand that you will be increasing the rod's inertia which will reduce how
far the rod/line will cast, how much effort is required to cast a given distance and you will also reduce the rod's sensitivity. Adding mass has the same affect as lowering the modulus of elasticity so in affect you will turn that high modulus rod that you paid big money for into an inexpensive standard modulus rod.
---------------------------------------------
On the other hand, you will be converting a rod which you do not enjoy casting into a tool which will give you pleasure when using it. Unfortunately, there is no "Free Lunch".

Force= mass times acceleration
The rod deflecting force is a combination of line mass ( weight / acceleration due to gravity) and the acceleration created by the velocity change imparted by the angler.
The easiest component to modify is the mass either by change of line length or AFTMA line number.
The change in acceleration requires technique and practice. To create acceleration it is required to change velocity. You can accelerate to a higher velocity in the same time or the same velocity in a shorter time. Both can be accomplished with fast or slow action rods through proper casting technique.
There is no magic blank taper that can circumvent learning the proper technique. If you're "waving" the rod without creating velocity change you won't feel the rod load.
Patience and practice are the learning curve. In due time you can learn to adjust your technique to match the rod, line weight and line length to achieve what you require.

Eugene Moore

Amen Bill Boetcher!!!

I love simplistic answers when they hit the nail on the head!

The - KISS method - Keep It Simple Stupid

Bill - willierods.com

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The load on the rod is created by the weight of
> the line/lure and the input of the fisherman. If
> Tim will simply move up a line size or two, he
> will find that his fast action rods load and cast
> quiet nicely.

I'm really confused now. I've taken CCS data on 3 fly rods and checked the line weights with my Umpqua gage, here's my results:

7' 3 wt GLX - 29 cents = 3.27 ERN, AA - 66*, fly line wt @ 4.0, fly line is 22% heavier than ERN
8'9" 5 wt Sage SP - 42 cents = 5.2 ERN, AA - 60*, fly line wt @ 6.0, fly line is 15% heavier than ERN
9'6' 9wt Sage RPLXi - 80 cents = 9.8 ERN, AA - 62*, fly line wt @ 9.0, line is 8% LIGHTER than ERN

I realize I'm a poor caster but I subscribe to the Lefty Kreigh "speed up & stop" method without bending my wrist. I have to move the 7' 3wt much faster to keep the line in the air, the 5wt is much easier, and actually the 9'6" 9wt is the easiest and allows for the SLOWEST casting motion to keep the line in the air. I don't understand why I would have to overline my rods when the ERN of the rods indicate what line I should be able to use. And the first two already are ovelined percentage-wise, and the easiest casting setup is actually underlined.

I'm wondering if it's the rod length that is dictating the speed of my casting instead of the action? But I would think if a fly line weight is the same as the ERN of the fly rod, it would be easy to cast. Overlining may help but I don't understand why the correct matching line won't work?

Got any friends that fly fish ? Not ribbing you, but try to borrow a 2 and 4 wt line for that 3 wt you don't like
Try them on it You may find you like it with a different line for the way you fish.

Numbers are a starting point and NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE

It is all about what feels good to you There are no Fly Line Police around and you will not get arrested for trying.

Bill - willierods.com

In my experience neither the rod nor the line are the cause of not being able to "keep the line in the air." Here are the causes of this problem which I have noticed, in order of decreasing probability:

1st: An arc-shaped casting stroke, where the fly line describes a semicircle before and behind the caster. This is usually the result of excessive flexing of the wrist. The rod tip typically moves from the 8 o'clock to the four o'clock position.

2nd: Beginning the forward cast long before the back cast has straightened out; rushing the cast.

3rd: Dropping the elbow during the casting stroke. The result is similar to that in #1 above, but the elbow rather than the wrist is at fault.

An efficient casting stroke can keep dang near any line, no matter how light, "in the air." - but may not be able to cast it.

Bill, that makes no sense - "Numbers are a starting point and NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE "

Then why was the CCS system created? I thought it was a method to determine what would properly load a rod. If a rod has a specific ERN, I should be able to go buy that line weight and use it effectively. If I need to buy a range of several different line weights to find which one casts best - why bother to measure the ERN to begin with?

If my 7' GLX has an ERN of 3.27 - what line am I suppose to use on it?

Tim,

Yes you can do that. But also need to know the range you'll be fishing. The weight of a 5-weight line is different at 20 feet than it is at 50 feet.

If I had a fly rod rated at 3.27, I would have a rod that would cast any line at some distance. But for in close work I'd choose a 4-weight line and a 3-weight line for average to longer distances out to maybe 60 feet. Your personal casting stroke will also affect what line you need to use, but if you'll try these on that rod I think you'll be happy.

..............

Tim,
You are quite correct on your assesment of fly line versus ERN.
Your 7' 3 weight does indeed cast very well with a 3 weight line.
No disrespect meant to Lefty but you're not pitching the same game between your 9 weight and your 3 weight. The 9 weight will respond better to torque where the 3 weight will respond better to velocity.The house painter and the artist both use paint but the technique varies greatly in the application.
Don't wear your arm out trying to create velocity when a flick of your wrist can cast that 7 footer 40'.
Lift slowly with your forearm and just prior to the line tip lifting quickly flick your wrist to fire the line up and back. Very little effort required, all the load will take place in the rod tip.
The rod is capable but you have to adapt to it. I would normally underline that rod to a 2 weight and fire casts with only my wrist. Think of the artist painting.

Eugene Moore

TIM:

If I can chime in and give one last piece of advice that has been said already...Bill is so correct on this and I think that you are getting waaaaaaay wrapped around the wheel and want absolutes...there are none. Sure the CCS is a great and useful tool for a starting point, but you have a starting point already when you buy the blank; the line weight recommended by the manufacturer.

I will pretend to know about the CCS and know very little of it. Who cares if the ERN says one thing and then it doesn't work for you in real life? Try what works best for you and your casting style....The CCS cannot be gospel!

Also, try DIFFERENT TAPERS OF LINES: this is a HUGE variable when casting! If you like short casting and want the rod to load sooner, go to a bassbug, bonefish, or pike taper. Or better yet, a Mastery GPX is a GREAT all around line for most scenarios. A steelhead taper requires more line for the caster to aerialize before one can "feel" the rod load or bend.

You are also comparing 3 different rods of different actions, lengths, modulus,etc. BUT, you hit the nail on the head when you realized you are casting rods of different lenght: The longer the rod, usually the slower the rod stroke. Also, 9 weights will outcast 3 and 5 weights ALL day long in terms of distance.

And one last thing...becoming a proficient caster with proper instruction is paramount to your abilitites. Years ago, I thought I was all that and a bag of chips...until I spent a few days with Steve Rajeff and the late Tom White from G. Loomis. They corrected my bad habits (Through much patience.) and my casting ability before and after was like night and day.

And all due respect to Lefty, his style is ONE philosophy. I bend my wrist all the time and I can cast the entire line with 30' of backing rapidly following it! (I'm not boasting, just stating.)

I wish I lived closer to ya; I would drive and spend a good three-four hours (And of course a couple of Sam Adams') and go over some hard casting skills with ya, cause that may be the weak link.

Good luck and I'll bow-out!

Paul

Ditto on what Paul says

Bill - willierods.com

The CCS is gospel when it comes to measuring action and power just as a tape measure is gospel with it comes to measuring blank length - they're going to be absolutely correct. If the CCS says your blank or rod has an ERN of 3.27, you can take that as gospel. It is absolutely correct.

But the CCS does not dictate what line you must use on any rod - That's one notion we should get out of the way at the outset. What the CCS gives you is a power measurement which you can then use to wisely choose a line that will work for you at the range you'll be fishing.

Remember, the ERN is a relative power measurement, not a fly line number.

.................

TOM:

Thanks Tom, I did not know that! Learn something new everyday! One of these days I will sit down and take some time to learn it, becuase I was very uniformed as I thought it also meant a flyline number.

Paul

It's not a fly line number. But the inventor did coin an equation for those who want a quick translation to a useful line number. But it is only a suggestion as a place to start, for average anglers fishing average distances. The inventor fully recognized the differences among anglers in terms of casting ability and myriad fishing situations.

If you have at least 30 feet of line past the tip, this works well for the masses. : ERN (Effective Rod Number) = ELN (Effective Line Number).

Going further, I have used the following equations to include shorter and longer ranges.

For fishing in very close, less than 30 feet: ERN = ELN+1.

For fishing at longer distances, say beyond 65 feet or so: ERN = ELN-1.

After a brief bit of use, you can taylor these equations to suit your personal fishing and casting style. You can even establish a good equation for using the ERN with spey and two-handed fly rods, if you wish.

.............

TOM:

Thanks for the explanation sir; your delivery and the terms you used are helpful to my understanding!

Paul