I have narrowed down the blanks i am going to use for a 5wt fly build. One of the blanks i like is the Rainshadow RX8+, looking at their suggested guide spacings they suggest single foot fly guides. Can double foot snake guides be used instead of and what disadvantages may i get if i go down that path?

Also what size snake guides would replace size 3 and 4 single foot fly guides?

Stu

You can use the double foot guides. Double foot guides is more of a traditional look. The only difference between the two is going to be the added weight of the additional wraps for the double foot guides. The added weight will effect the action of the blank a little, but not enough to really matter.

The ring on the size 3 and 4 would be the same on the double foots.

Mike

I agree with Mike; the difference in weight in practice between singe and double foot guides is trivial in to all but the seriously obsessed. Single foot guides should work just fine on a 5 wt. However, there is no "ring" on a double foot guide. The effective geometric opening on a double foot guide is considerably larger than that of a single foot guide of the same "ring diameter." There are situations when this increased line clearance is of considerable value, particularly in heavier weight fly rods.

No real sales objective here, although we probably sell more snake guides then any other company in the US I’d rather sell ceramic ring guides instead (their prices are higher).

What I wanted to mention is some basic testing done by Fly Logic for their rods some 10+ years ago. They wanted to go with wire single foot fly guides because Loomis did, but I mentioned that many builders and tournament casters were going with over sized snakes instead. They decided to set up some basic casting tests to measure performance differences. I set them up with:

1. Over sized (one size larger only) guides with large-loop top

2. Standard size guides (standard only to the sizes used in companies guide trains) with standard-loop top.

3. Over sized wire single foot guides w/large top.

4. Standard size single foot guides w/standard loop top.

They used 9’ rods of the same line weights, same reels and lines, and had many of their pro-staff and personnel (I suppose who-ever can cast a fly rod) test cast them all. What they found was that option number 1 outperformed all the rest. Might have been marginal but it was enough to make their decision on what guide trains to use on their rods.

Can't say why they found what they did other then maybe snakes run line better due to the angle of the wire??? There are many variables to consider but it may come down to each rod and purpose. Like I said no objective here, I like the ceramics but use a lot of wire frame guides. Many of my lighter line rods have single foot guides but the heavier rods have more snakes. I float tube a lot and use shooting heads w/loop to loop connections and hate the “cur-chunk” feel of the line going back and forth in wire single foot guides. I also use a light rod with snakes almost everyday (I have a pond stocked with trout) and find it casts easier then my light rods with single foot guides. Might be my casting style which is just get the fly out there as best I can, but I doubt using snakes in place of single foot guides will detract from any measureable performance. The sizing on single foot guides run slightly smaller then snakes but with total ID, I would run the same sizes being 3 & 4.

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

Stuart,
If you're going to fish fine tippets 5x - 8x or midges go with the single foot light wire titanium guides ending with a #2.
The reduced mass will help the hook-set without popping light tippets or pulling the hook free.
If you won't need to go that small or fine use the light wire titanium double foot guides also ending with a #2.
The double foot guides are a little kinder to the fly line if you add more load playing a fish harder.
You might also try dropping one guide for a little bit higher performance. 9 guides plus a tip top for a 9' rod..
If you require new spacing for the reduced no of guides let me know.

Eugene Moore



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2010 05:49PM by Eugene Moore.

Thank you everyone for the very valuable info. I will go with the RX8+ and use lightwire snake guides.

Eugene if you don't mind have you got a suggested guide size and spacing for this particular blank. RX8+ 5wt 4pce.

Thanks again.

Stuart,
Assuming a 9' 5 weight single hand to use with light tippet and/or midges
9 guides plus tip top
guide sizes
(3) #2 Recoil titanium light wire single foot
(2) #3 hard chrome single foot
(2) #4 hard chrome single foot
#10 Alox double foot
#12 Alox double foot
Guide locations from tip
3.8 8.4 13.9 20.3 28.0 37.2 48.0 61.0 76.4 distance in inches

I only use the titanium wire guides for the top three guides
The remainder of the singles you may use any good chrome single foot Pac Bay , Amtackle, H & H
The last 2 can be aluminum oxide or ceramic double foot

You might consider checking the blank to verify it throws the line you require. Some posts have stated these blanks may be under-rated.

Eugene Moore

If you take Eugene's suggested guide sizing, drop the #4 and #3 guides and move right from the #10 into the size #2's, you'll have a much straighter and smoother line path. You do not need all those guide sizes - they do nothing for you and do not result in a more gradual drop. In fact, they upset the line path by a bit.

.............

I've rebuilt many many flyrods that had snake guides - exchanging them for single foot ceramics and Pac Bay Minimas and every report back states that the rebuilt rods cast (or more accurately shoot line) further than with the original snake guide set up. The ONLY advantage to snake guides is that they don't ice up as quickly in very cold conditions. Wire is such an "outdated" technology, I don't see why you wouldn't just skip it all together to begin with. Single foot ceramics hold more of the line away from the blank during casting which results in less resistance when "shooting" a line on your final haul. Only when traditional wire guides are more esthetically pleasing (like on bamboo rods) will I ever use a wire snake guide. If a customer insists on having one on their custom rod, I charge them extra for the added time and materials necessary to wrap two foot snakes.

If or when competetive fly casters (distance and accuracy) can select the type of gudes on their competition rods, what type of guides would they or do they select? Can anyone answer this question? I would trust the judgment of proven casting experts before the suggestions of persons with casting skills unknown to me.

All else is being equal, guide type has little to do with casting distance. A well bent paper clip will net you as much distance as an SIC ceramic guide. The worth of the insert or guide style lies in other areas such as line wear, noise, smoothness of line pay-out, etc.

...............

Also some thing new. Symor English wire guides. The ring is up off the blank more
[] In the middle of the page

Bill - willierods.com

I'm easily confused guys.

So if one is building a 12 WT. would you pick something with a ceramic insert for superior line wear and smoothness? Or would it be better to have snake guides for knot clearance? FWIW I was considering alconites or minimas. I'm not sure what backing I'll use yet but would imagine 30# dacron or braid. What would be the smallest size guide you would use?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

YOu can use bigger ceramics if you need more clearance.