Jeremy,

20 rods per week @ $200.00 per rod is hardly custom. It's merely assembly work. It's my understanding that CUSTOM is what this board is about!! Doug, who started this post, stated that he was informed that a rod could be stripped, cleaned, rewrapped, and refinished in less than an hour. He stated that he felt inferior. He was made to feel inferior because guys like you insist that to be successful - you need to be fast?! Are you kidding me?

I personally would not target customers looking for $200 mass-assembled rods, as they can get those off of the shelf in the big box stores. Instead, I'd target the client looking for a more refined product who is willing to spend for something more unique that was built to curtail to his/her specific needs. My time is more fruitfully spent as artist, rather than an "assembly worker". Are you saying that you're more successful building 20 rods at $200 ea. than those building 2 @$1000 ea.? Not hardly! Will YOUR NAME be spoken of in the hallowed circles of master rodbuilders? Hardly. And I fully admiit that my work is no where near that level either, but at least I strive to achieve that level.

The higher end rods take longer to build and encite FAR more admiration than the "cookie cutter" rods. Words have been chosen quite carefully!

Thomas,

It's the mass produced works by guys like you that got me into rodbuilding in the first place - so that I can take my time and do it right!

Torin Koski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeremy,
>
> 20 rods per week @ $200.00 per rod is hardly
> custom. It's merely assembly work. It's my
> understanding that CUSTOM is what this board is
> about!! Doug, who started this post, stated that
> he was informed that a rod could be stripped,
> cleaned, rewrapped, and refinished in less than an
> hour. He stated that he felt inferior. He was
> made to feel inferior because guys like you insist
> that to be successful - you need to be fast?! Are
> you kidding me?
>
> I personally would not target customers looking
> for $200 mass-assembled rods, as they can get
> those off of the shelf in the big box stores.
> Instead, I'd target the client looking for a more
> refined product who is willing to spend for
> something more unique that was built to curtail to
> his/her specific needs. My time is more
> fruitfully spent as artist, rather than an
> "assembly worker". Are you saying that you're
> more successful building 20 rods at $200 ea. than
> those building 2 @$1000 ea.? Not hardly! Will
> YOUR NAME be spoken of in the hallowed circles of
> master rodbuilders? Hardly. And I fully admiit
> that my work is no where near that level either,
> but at least I strive to achieve that level.
>
> The higher end rods take longer to build and
> encite FAR more admiration than the "cookie
> cutter" rods. Words have been chosen quite
> carefully!

Torin,

You are way out of line and flat out wrong. You are taking so many things out of context and you're making things up! If you would take the time to go back and reread my old post, I said nothing about faster builders being superior to anyone. What I said was that it does not matter how long it takes one to build a rod (this was stated SEVERAL times by others as well).

I did not say that anyone is more successful for doing anything- not sure where you go that from. As for my name being spoken of in the 'hallowed circles of master builders', that is not my concern (where in the world did that come from?!?). My concern is building the best rods I can while meeting my clients needs and providing them with the best rod they've ever used at a reasonable price.

Like I have told you TWICE already, choose your words carefully. You come across as extremely demeaning, argumentative, and inflamatory- for what? Why must you act like this? No one (including me) has done or said anything to you or anyone else to provoke you. Why all the insults to people about how fast or slow they build? Why must you insist that if a guy can build a rod in a few hours than it must be junk and he must have done a terrible job? What do you base this on- anything factual? One bad experience perhaps? What gives?

Tom, forgive me if I have violated the rules of the forum in my response to Mr Koski (I sincerely apologize) but I've had enough of his attitude and remarks.

jeremy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2010 03:55PM by Jeremy Wagner.

Come on guys -- I think he understands ??

Bill - willierods.com

Bill - you're right.

I'm just trying to figure out the math... $2000 a week is $104K... but you need to take out materials, overhead, insurance, time off, taxes, professional fees, etc... still not a ton of money. You'd probably be better off making 3 just to be safe. But now you'd have to find efficiencies...

But what I really want to know is how to tap a market where I can sell two $1000 rods per week... cause it ain't going to happen in the bass market. I'm not familiar with other types, so is that really realistic?

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AD

Thomas,

It's the mass produced works by guys like you that got me into rodbuilding in the first place - so that I can take my time and do it right!


Torin

Thank you for the compliment. When you see the high quality work someone like me can produce in a short time it's inspiring. Keep up the wrapping and maybe someday you will get a little quicker. When you have wrapped as many rods as I have you get fast and your quality increases from shear repetition, but don't assume that my customers will accept low quality.

Thomas F. Thornhill

Thomas, as long as you're impressed with your work and find others willing to pay for it - I guess, that's all that matters.

Jeremy, making builders like Doug feel that he's inferior for not performing at the same rate of speed that others perform is out of line. He's not sitting in an assembly line. The end result, regardless of how long it takes is what maters most.

Just remember though, Lamobourghini's and Ferari's are still made by hand, one at a time. Ford and General motors use robotics wherever they can. Given the "means", which would you prefer to drive?

Alex, WOW, if $2000/week is borderline for you, I need figure out how to "snag" some of your clients.

Torin,

I didn't even make a post on the original thread that Doug got his inferiority complex from. He apparently was feeling that way before I ever told him that it doesn't matter how long it takes to build a rod. Look for yourself, it's two threads down. What exactly did I say in this thread to make Doug feel inferior? Is it the fact that I told him to not worry about how long it takes him to build a rod?!? I have no idea where you're getting this from or why you're so angry. Go back and read my post- it was not edited. My original words are still there. What is it that I said?

As to what I would drive, I would take a Ford Super Duty any day of the week over any performance car out there. I have no use for a Lambo or a Ferrari- I can't fit my muskie rod in them and it would look stupid hanging out the window!

jeremy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2010 07:25PM by Jeremy Wagner.

Torin -

Do the math... personal insurance, liability insurance, business licenses, electricity, mileage, equipment, accountant fees, legal retainer, shipping, and so on - not to mention parts and supplies coming out of that $2000 per week. How much is left for profit and are you considering your labor in that profit figure?

And where is the market for $1000 rods selling consistently? I know it isn't the bass market.

I'm not bashing, I'm just trying to bring up realistic points to consider.

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AD

Jeremy, I never said you made those claims that resulted in Doug's inferiority complex. You just came to the defense of those who did.

Torin,

I recently opened a rod building business I no longer build rods as a hobby. The client's I hope to target most are the very discerning and very demanding. Those who appreciate and want the "art" yet also demand the highest performance. To that end, I've had 2 clients approach me and I sold both with each rod going for a quite tidy sum! (over $600 is all I'll say) That's 2 client's in 5 months though. You do the math. Even at $1000 each, over 5 mo. that isn't much.
if your running a business even only part time!

As said before, not a lot of client's willing to spend double or more on a rod just so there are fancy one of a kind wraps & weaves on it. I'd certainly be very happy to oblige a few "plane Jane rod" clients and they would still be getting a high performance CUSTOM rod. Not junk!

Actually, I would make more money per rod per hr. building "plane Jane" because it's faster, easier, and less chance that I might have to do something "special" over again because it wasn't quite perfect the first go round.

As to YOUR photos? I don't see anything that would take a lot of time to do and I could dupilicate any one of your posted rods in one day easily. Even the 2 rods with simple thread weaves. Your pix showed nice fit & finish but nothing very time consuming to design & build (including the handle work) so if I were you I would get off my condesending and judgemental high horse.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Torin,

The only people I defended were those that you attacked and called 'mass producers of junk'. You need to get your facts straight before you type your responses.

jeremy

ray wrote, "I don't see anything that would take a lot of time to do and I could dupilicate any one of your posted rods in one day easily."

-Actually, you couldn't duplicate it in one day because the guides are finished in both permagloss AND epoxy - a technique recommended by other builders on this board who have rods FAR superior to the work that you have on display! In this technique, you have to wait a long period of time for the permagloss to set up BEFORE you can add epoxy. The resulting finish is MUCH more durable than going straight to epoxy (I've tried them all). Come on!, really, you can make a multi-tiered grip, install it, wind all of the guides on, do a 70 thread weave, apply decal, add color preserver AND thread finish In ONE DAY?! Really? I quit! In fact everyone else might as well quit because I'm pretty sure nobody else can do it in one day! Leonardo Divinchi was apparently a complete failure because it took him so long to finish the Sisteen Chapel? I've never stated that MY work was better than yours, so who's really riding their "high horse" here?

jer wrote, "The only people I defended were those that you attacked and called 'mass producers of junk'. You need to get your facts straight before you type your responses."

-The mass producers I was referring to were just that - mass producers of rods - like the kind you buy prefinished off of the shelf in the big box stores. You can defend these people all you want, I'm more concerned about the Doug's of the world who shouldn't be pressured to fit into this high-speed "hyped-up" category. Maybe you should get your facts straight before telling someone else to get their facts straight. And if your so impressed with mass production then why are your bothering to build custom rods at all?! To have your name on them? You can add a decal to your off the shelf rods for that.

Torin,

I never said or even implied that my rod work is better than yours or that yours is inferior to any another's. I even complimented your work.
I just said that I could do what I saw in a days time and I can. (more times than not) No sloppy work or cutting corners in construction either. Of course it does not take me a day of test casting to know if my set-up is it's best or not.

Obviously, adhesive, CP, & finish set time will have something to do with TIME OF COMPLETION but not TIME TO BUILD. It's possible that terminology is causing some confusion within this discussion.

I was teasing with a very respected CUSTOM builder at the ICRBE last Feb. over a decal vs a weave on a rod he was showing me. His comment was "rods per day, not days per rod" and for his business model & clientèle it was absolutely appropriate. To insinuate his rods are sub-standard or not "custom" because he is fast, efficiant, and uses little or no "time consuming" frills is an insult to him, his clients, and others.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2010 02:48PM by Raymond Adams.

And it's an insult to guys like Doug and myself to be made to feel inferior because we are not doing things at the pace of "mass production". Have you ever made a mistake that you realize you would not have made - had you slowed down and taken your time? I've worked with guys who performed their work sooooooo fast that they could do it twice! Problem is, they occasionally had to go back and do just that. Didn't make to business owner too happy.

There are "pioneering" methods and techniques developed all of the time. Some shorten time and effort, some lengthen. The Forhan locking wrap is one such method that lengthens the initial time to complete a single foot guide wrap. You can't possibly convince me that it doesn't. I've read soooo many builders on this board state that it takes too much time for them to consider using. But if it results in a more secure guide wrap, wouldn't it be better in the long run to impliment? Wouldn't it make it less likely that the rod would be returned due to "pull-out". Wouldn't guide pull-out result in a dissatisfied customer? Do you see where I'm going with this?................Sometimes more is more, and get you more ($).

I'll try to be less animated from here on out!!

I've been building rods off & on for 30yrs. Of course I've made mistakes and yes some were due to trying to get it done fast. Do I regret those mistakes?
For the most part, heck no! That includes cutting of a 6 layer 80 thread count weave after many many hours of work. I learn something (least I try to) from my mistakes and sometimes what I learn leads to quicker production.

Frankly, until this year I never really concerned myself with actual "work time" spent on a rod. It takes what ever time it takes. Sometimes it's a few hours and sometimes it's 100hrs or more. It all depends on what's required & how experienced and proficient I am with said requirements.

I didn't see anywhere that read those who are not as fast as some are inferior and Alex only said one may not be making the $$ one could be making if they are not able to be faster. That's true no matter what business one is in.

I did take a poke at ya personally with my comment above on not needing to take all day test casting but ya got my dander up.. Sorry,

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2010 03:33PM by Raymond Adams.

Torin,

You obviously are not taking the time to think this through. You've repeatedly accused me of saying things that I clearly did not say and you're jumping all over people for very petty things. Seems like you need to sit back and take a deep breath.

You have no idea what the difference is between off-the-shelf rods and those built by custom builders for performance, without all the frills. I assure you that you cannot go into any store in the world and find rods like I build.

Again, let me type this in caps so you can understand it- NO ONE IS SAYING THAT ANYONE IS INFERIOR BECAUSE OF HOW FAST OR HOW SLOW THEY BUILD A ROD. If someone feels inferior, there's nothing any one of us can do about it. When I see the grips that Mark Blabaum is building, I feel inferior. Does that make me want to quit? NO! It inspires me! When you see someone doing something better or faster than you, you have two choices. First, you can whine, cry, pout, and quit, or you can choose to do your best and not worry about what others are doing. You'll only feel inferior if you allow yourself too- it's about attitude and choices.

Why in the world would you quit building rods because you can't build them as fast as Raymond?!? What's with the quitting attitude? Try being challenged and inspired. Since when did rod building become a race? We all start somewhere and we all work at our own pace- it's that simple. LET IT GO!!!

I'm done with this, it's a waste of my time.

jeremy

I, myself, have over 25 years of rodbuilding under my belt, and if nothings made me quit by now, nothing ever will - least of all the criticism from the self-appointed "board police"!

Somebody needs a hug...

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

You must have some mighty powerful hugs Ray. I was thinking of something that rhymes with hugs FWIW:)

I tried searching in the photo section for "Torin" but saw nothing. Can someone post a link? I'd like to see what a $1,000 dollar fly rod looks like.

I got an invite out on a nice boat the other weekend. I hope for it to become a regular event. It was mentioned he runs over to the Bahamas for the Wahoo turny. Naturally I started looking at a serious high speed trolling rig as he didn't have what I felt was required to be competitive. I must admit one could sink a grand in a rod/reel very quickly. Imagine trolling at 15+ knots, with wire and 3 pound cigar sinker, and having a big wahoo swimming at 40 knots (in the other direction) nailing your lure. We are talking stuff that rips rod holders out of gunnels.

Personally I use my tools too hard for them to be works of art.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.