I'm interested in what you all know about rod length. My thoughts are that this is far too opinionated an area where the wrong choice is made far too often. I'm hoping you engineers will chime in, as I know this is a nuts and bolts aspect of engineering.

It's often claimed (without facts) that the most accurate-casting rod length for an average sized adult male (5'8" last I checked, maybe 5'9" with the latest generation) with average length arms is 6'. Let's use the average male as a baseline, assuming that in the case of a 4'6" female or 6'6" male this will need adjusting. Let's also assume that we're working with average butt grip length, say 7". With a average arm length of 32" and a hand grasping a grip (decreasing effective arm length to about 28"), minus the rear grip, this adds roughly 21" to a rods length. Add a rig that is, say, 12" (rough average between bait and lure rigs) from the rod tip that will swing outward during the cast and we arrive at something roughly 33" longer in effective casting length than the physical length of the rod.

Even us non-engineers understand that the further an object extends from the body the heavier it will in effect be and the harder it will be to start and stop. We also know that a longer rod creates a longer lever that allows a larger arc, more time for acceleration, and a launch point that is higher from the water, albeit at the expense of a rod that is harder to swing (the rod itself being heavier AND further from the body). It is the point where these cross and diminishing returns begin to be realized that I'm interested in. One would hope that there's an equation to calculate this, but, from what I know, we're still more in the subjective arena. Along with this, how fast does that equation slide for those taller/shorter that average who have longer/shorter arms than average?

Obviously, there are other factors that must be accounted for and a compromise reached, but starting from the position that accuracy and distance are paramount most of the time, I'd like to isolate those two factors. Case in point: I was on the water with two other guys for a 12 hour session a few weeks ago. A very successful day (one 9 1/2 pound large mouth and many others). Expecting to fish the docks from the bank for pan fish with the strong possibility of bass, I was fishing a 6 1/2' 6-10# rod. On the bank, things were fine. Once my buddy was spotted on the water and his boat raided, I wished I had brought a 6'. I felt accuracy wasn't as good. We had the equipment to move to any spot desired, lowering the distance requirement. I also found myself shorting many of my casts to avoid hooking the other guys on the small boat, where the shorter rod would have reduced this.

I see many bassers toting 7-8' rods and I wonder about this being the best choice, because of cases like the above example. We also can't have a thorough discussion of the point without considering the weight being thrown. In my experience, the speed that is possible on the cast with a shorter rod trumps the other advantages of the longer rod in most cases. Take sub 1/8 ounce lures on one end of the spectrum. Getting these things out there really requires a hard whipping cast, regardless of rod length. At what point does the speed of the cast win out over the larger/higher arc and vice verse? I find it very difficult to get this type of speed on a 8' or longer crappie rod, even when very light, because the mass is so far from the body. Take another example of a 1/2-1 1/2 ounce crankbait. The lure itself is adding significant weight to the rod, making it harder to generate speed, but carrying more kinetic energy. The shorter rod allow the weight to be moved more easily and thus achieve more speed. How much distance is being sacrificed here with the shorter rod, since a higher speed is possible?

On the other end of the spectrum, surf casters need less accuracy and more distance and are unencumbered by trees, weeds, other fisherman, etc., are throwing heavy rigs, and casting two-handed. A a 12-15' rod works well. Other considerations aside, a very long rod cast with both hands and throwing a heavy weight works best. Here, it's much less the speed of the cast and more the amount of kinetic energy stored in the heavy weight that achieves the distance.

Of course, the length of rod versus hook set must be one of the other compromising factors. There is certainly a point of diminishing returns under about 6'. Unlike Tom, I don't experience much difference here between 6' and 6 1/2', but drop that length to 5' and there's a definite disadvantage. I don't see much if any advantage in hook setting with a rod that is "long enough" versus one that is a foot longer.

Sorry for the novel. I'm hunting for facts that will aid in pointing my customers to the best choice, something more than "it just works".

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

I don't think you can put a number on the optimum length rod. It depends on too many criteria. What is the priority - Casting distance? Hook setting power? Ability to perform a specific task?


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I think rod length is usually a personal preference. It is one of several factors where compromise is an issue….depending on, as Tom said, what the priorities are. Most of the rods I use for Bass fishing are under 6’. They allow me to better manipulate lures, make short accurate casts and give me more leverage.

Jason,
I disagree regarding length and hook-setting. While I have not conducted a "scientific" study, I will say that I get more hook-ups using a 7'6" versus a 6'6" rod, especially with a lot of line out.
George

IMO this is one of those areas where its the custom rod builders expertise that makes all the difference. You have to consider the physical size and ability of your customer and want they need to get done and how, and then advise them of the length rod that will be best for them. There might be a lot of things where you have formulas to get down to the correct size of something but I do not think length is one of those. Its a matter of gut feeling and knowing what length will best server that specific customer. Another area where custom rod builders should have the advantage over factory rod companies since we are dealing with the end user one on one.

Thanks for all the responses. Obviously, one would be mistaken to only consider length as relates to the cast and hookset. I suppose I wasn't all that specific on information I was after.

Other factors aside just for the sake of establishing a casting curve (those other factors get factored in, just not right now), we can establish how long the total casting apparatus is. We can measure arms and hands, rod length, reel position, and rig length extending beyond the tip (determined by application). We can come within an inch or two of the exact length of the casting apparatus. We also have specific weights that can be measured. We can determine if a rod weighs in at 3 ounces, how long it is, and how much the rig weighs. Based on these known facts, there's got to be an engineering equation to state that X weight Y distance from body will achieve an average Z speed, yielding a cast distance of T based upon the kinetic energy imparted to the rig, speed, and height from the impact surface. Tom, did you ever get into the numbers working with the casting machine?

Accuracy is a different animal. In my mind much more difficult to quantify. I'd be interested in any quantification methods any of you may have experience with. Jim, I agree that I would have been better off in the example I gave with a shorter setup, since distance was not at a premium.

George, I hear what you're saying quite a bit and don't discount it one bit, but arguments are also made in the opposite. Any tests been done?

Peter, I agree, and this is where I am. I'm hoping to be a bit less subjective through more facts, though. We'll never have an equation or chart for everything, but I tend to believe that something like cast length, given that we've pretty much got all the facts, should be a bit more factual to calculate. Yes, individual casters, wind, etc. come into play, but the baseline can help determine that X length will outcast Y length under ideal circumstances with X weight and "here's why".

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

IMO, casting accuracy is a function of the fisherman, not the rod. That being said, I can cast more accurately with a longer, faster action rod than a shorter rod or a rod with a slower action. But, this is just me, I'm not making an arguement for anyone else. I haven't done any scientific tests, but when aiming at a small pocket in the pads, I can tell you I hit it more often with a longer, faster action rod.

jeremy

Jason,
I agree with you 100%.
Shorter rods for better accuracy.
Longer rods for more distance.
Shorter rods for more leverage.
Longer rods to be better able to pick up slack line.

As the other posts have suggested - it is a trade off.
For example, my favorite rod is a 6/6" rod. But if the wind is blowing really hard, I will go down to a 6' or a 5'9" rod for better accuracy in the wind and waves.

Conversely, if the seas are flat, I might go up to a 7' or a 7'6" rod to be able to drop a bait into a far corner while staying away from the spot to avoid spooking fish.

Then, if I am spring fishing, schooled fish that are very spooky, I might go up to my 10 foot rod, with a high speed reel for even more distance while staying even further away from the schooled fish.

Simply put -
No single rod will do everything for everyone. Different lengths, different actions, spinning rods, casting rods, all have their place and one that is different generally doesn't meet the specialized abilities of another rod.

Take care
Roger

p.s.
A general rule of thumb that I have found for many fishermen is that they tend to lke a rod - for most of their use - that is about 4 inches longer than they are tall.
It seems that this rule of thumb tends to work out pretty well for most folks.
i.e. shorter folks tend to prefer a shorter rod. Conversely, taller folks tend to prefer a longer rod. I am 6'2 and prefer a 6'6" rod.
I have several other friends that are that height and also prefer that length.

I also have several friends that are under 6 feet. The general feeling for those folks is that they are happier with a 5'9" rod or a 6' rod.

Sure, they all use rods of different lengths and actions, but all things being equal, their favorite one tends to be one that is just a few inches longer than they are tall.

Take care
Roger

Jason your questions could be answered quite easily of a fishing rod was made out of a hardwood dowel (that wouldn't bend) and all rods used the same diameter and type of wood. A fishing rod is a third class lever and you can find the formulas if needed.

But fishing rods are not hardwood dowels. There is a huge difference between how effective a rod will cast with the proper range of casting weights compared to an improper range. If two rods had a comparable "bend" profile the material used will make a difference. In short, too many variables for a formula. Or to put it another way, any formula would require too much info to be entered and the math wouldn't be easy.

Sometimes it is a lot less work to experiment and measure the results.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Jason,
No problem with your logic or thought process. Well thought out and solid.
The largest factor I believe in both accuracy and distance is the arm doing the casting.
That arm provides both the power for distance casting and the timing necessary for accuracy.
Second is the rods ability to react to the acceleration created by the caster. The rod tip must be light enough to not impede the casters strength but quick enough to impart the necessary velocity against the cast weight.
Higher speeds and flatter trajectory are more accurate. Even at close range casting a straight path beats the lob for accuracy.
Rod length and casting accuracy are not synamanous. Release timing and practice with a given length rod are more important for accuracy.
Long stiff rods can obtain high accuracy if the caster is easily within his timing window. Remember the velocity will be higher so the timing must be more exact. Some casters accomplish this with alarming degrees of control and make it look easy.
Line sweep for hookset definitely goes to the longer rod providing the tip inertia is kept low to prevent overloading the angler and the blank taper is capable of obtaining the velocity.
Basic math principles are available for analysis. Good luck on calculating the polar moment of inertia of the rod blank itself. Rather more complicated when viewed as a variable taper shaft with variable mass distribution over it's length.

Eugene Moore

Thanks everyone for your input. As evidenced by differing opinions above, we still have a lot to learn in this area in terms of the science. There's a lot of valuable information in this thread, though, so please keep the opinions coming.

Mass and inertia as pertains to micro guides (er, small guides) really got me contemplating this. As with small guides, I'd put forth that we should not be adding the mass of rod length unless the benefits of that added mass are greater than the maneuverability that length is going to take away. How long for a given weight is what I'd really like to put some facts behind, as I'm sure we all would. The only way it could really be done and be called scientific is with a casting machine, which leaves that all important "type of arm" variable up to disrupt those calculations, but I would still see it as valuable information. Hey, Mike's an engineer and won the casting contest, so maybe we can nominate him as the machine ;) Mike can throw, Emory can hook up diagnostics, Tom can write, everyone can debate until the wee hours while calculating things in "beer time", and it can just be a big ole party ;) If anyone does any more serious work in this area, please keep me on your extremely interested list.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

Jason,
Do you have a spreadsheet program ie Excel or OpenOffice ?
If so I've done some dynamic casting calculations in spreadsheet format and could send them to you.
See if you can contribute in the progression.

Eugene Moore

Eugene,

I do have Excel and would love to work with what you've got. I'll contribute in any way I can and thank you.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

Eugene,

I wouldn't mind taking a look at your calculations. Can you send me a copy as well? If you unhide your email, we could ask without taking up space on the forum.

Joe