So a bass guy who is sponsored by high end rod company hit on some points in a blog that I felt were mis-represented, so I replied and got in reply, a lashing on the use of a properly spinned rod.....

So if you will here is what was posted initially:

"In this blog I will follow the natural progression from reels, which is what I touched on in my last blog, to rods. In the interest of brevity I will touch on a few issues you should consider when investing in a rod but allow you to do your research on the fine details.

Investing in your hobby is more than just some catch phrase; it is the beginning of success on the water. As with most things in life, it holds true in fishing that you get what you pay for. This is especially true with fishing rods.

Fishing poles are in my opinion the one place you really want to focus on when you either start fishing or begin the process of upgrading your tackle to keep up with your increasing skill level. The way I view the fishing pole, it is in fact the most important place to invest your money to give you an advantage in your piscatorial pursuits. In the hands of an avid angler (those of you who really “get it” about high-end rods will agree) the fishing pole becomes an extension of the body. High quality components including blank material, guides, handles and even the paint and especially the resin can all be combined in the hands of a skilled rod maker to either make or break the success of the angler.

Before I really get into the nitty gritty about this subject, in the interest of full disclosure, I want to make it known that I am sponsored by St Croix Rods. I will be using them as an example not for the sake of shameless promotion but because I am familiar with their processes and it’s better to speak of which you know rather than out of ignorance.

Let’s start at the beginning. Buy from a company that takes pride in their work. I do know that St Croix is an American/family owned company and I know that Americans who make a good living take more pride in their work than someone who mass produces rods in China and makes $2 a day in the process. Not knocking any company in particular but I believe it is true especially when it comes to high-end rods. There are several other companies that do the bulk of their work in the USA so I’m not being exclusive to St Croix here, just do the research and be sure that you consider buying from an American company who builds rods with mostly American hands.

Components… let’s start with the rod material. It is my preference to buy from a company that has its own research and development department. They will use glass or graphite material woven in a proprietary design that their engineers developed for specific purposes and are exclusive to that company. This gives them an advantage over other mass produced rods in strength, crisp action and weight, or lack there of. There are only a couple rod companies that have full time staff engineers that do nothing but design new blanks. You will find that these are the companies always on the cutting edge of design. Be sure to look a little deeper into the company that you are about to give your money to. Get past the advertising fluff and get your hands dirty.

One thing you don’t want to get all caught up in is sales terminology like “million modulus” or “high modulus”. There is a benefit to having a high modulus rod as they are typically lighter weight with the higher modulus number. However the higher density graphite needs to be tempered with lower modulus fabric to add strength otherwise it will be too brittle and will break easily. Construction of the rod is much more important and that is why many high-end rod manufactures don’t even list the modulus rating any more. They use multiple modulus fabrics, strategically placed at different load points on the rod to increase strength while reducing weight and improving performance. Things you do want to know are do they use carbon scrim rather than glass and is the resin a proprietary resin or just the cheap stuff. The finer details aren’t as “sexy” but that is where the quality of the blank will be determined. Again, like I love to say, do your research!!

Guides and handles are something else to consider. Handles are probably the least important aspect of a rod because they are subjective. Some people like skeletal, cork, EVA, traditional etc… it’s mostly about personal comfort. Guides on the other hand are extremely important. You want light weight, strong guides with high quality inserts that won’t chip. Chip an inexpensive ceramic insert and your rod is useless. You can also upgrade to Recoil guides which are impervious to bending, saltwater, have no ceramic insert to fall out or break, they are super light weight and are extremely sensitive. The downside, good guides are expensive but… (Again) you get what you pay for.

Layout… Much of the layout is personal preference but some of the things high-end rod builders consider can turn an average blank into a good one or turn a great blank into a dud. Even before starting to build the rod, high-end rod builders take many things into consideration. The way the components are affixed to the blank greatly affects the blanks performance and therefore affects the anglers’ success. Things like guide spacing, number of guides, size of guides, the spine of the blank; all of these seemingly small details add up to huge gains in performance.

So without going on and on and turning this blog into a book, I can sum it all up by saying this; high-end rod companies such as St Croix and some others have put a ton of R&D into many of the little things that go into making a great rod. You will get much more out of a rod where there is more attention to detail than the mass produced low end garbage that comes out of China. That quality comes with a price, but if I had a choice to spend the money anywhere in my fishing arsenal, the rod would be my first consideration. It is without a doubt the most important fishing tool you have. "

And in response I posted:

"From a custom builder here: Higher modulus materials being weaker is absolutly not true, it's the construction of the rod that matters in the breakage situations. The spine of the blank matters little. Most custom guys build on what you would call the straightest axis. If the spine mattered, you'd think you would be casting around corners right? Guide selection and setup are key! Also, just because something is made out of country does not make it an inferior product. One and twio piece blanks, it's preference IMO. If sensetivity was reduced soo much by multi piece rods, you'd see those fly rodders carrying once piece 9' rods all the time. I got into this as a hobby about a year ago and there's no doubt that anyone can build their own rods for far less than you think. You can build a rod without a rod dryer or any expensive tools. I challenge anyone who says they can't afford a custom to do a little research, get a telephone book and a cardboard box and build a rod."

And in response to my posting:

"Koldkut, to answer some of your concerns about my blog… It is true that higher modulus graphite is inherently stronger than lower modulus in volume. However, when a higher modulus fabric is used, the wall of the blank is thinner. You can maintain a higher tinsel strength with less graphite used, therefore reducing weight. I did not imply that high mod is weaker, just more brittle. If you are prone to abusing your rods like most bass guys do, it does not take much of an impact to damage a high mod blank, known as impact fracture, whereas the low mod rods are much more capable of absorbing sudden impacts such as dropping the rod on the rocks or hard hooksets. This is exactly the reason that when you look at many high mod rods you will see an extra layer of fabric just in front of the handle to absorb the impact of the rip-the-lip hookset. As for the spine of the blank, it is true that the spine matters little. I did say in my blog that it is a small detail but ten small details all done right all add up to quality. All high performance blanks have a spine and many will have two. Best case scenario is that the primary and secondary spine will be opposite each other. If this is the case, it is optimal to have one on top and one on the bottom of the rod. Worst case is that the primary and secondary will be at a 45 degree angle. If this is the case, or in the case of a single spine errantly placed at a 45 degree angle from the guides, what happens is when the rod loads in a cast it causes the blank to twist, known as axial distortion or stress. Over time this will cause graphite fibers to separate and the blank will weaken, which reduces hoop strength. This will cause the blank to “oval” and eventually will cause breakage under stress. Next, I never said all rods made outside of the country are inferior. St Croix has rods made outside of the US and their quality control standards are equal to the ones made in Wisconsin. What I did say was “mass produced low end garbage made in China”, key words were “low end”. How many rods made in the USA are low end? I can’t think of any. In order to hit low price points, companies must do two things find cheap labor and cheap components. There is no such thing as cheap labor in this country. On the two piece rod issue, I agree 100 percent. St Croix prides themselves on the precision, strength and sensitivity of their ferrule systems. In the performance of the rod, there will be minimal, if any, noticeable difference between one and two piece as long as it is a high quality rod. "

I don't wand to just come out and tell him he's incorrect on details without having a more stable argument. Or am I wrong.....

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2010 02:21PM by Emory Harry.

It is a shame ALL the discussion of the subject matter referenced above did not take place on the original blog!

Emory,

I was referencing Tom K's comments when he was breaking 60 blanks a day for the blank breakage article, he said that the higher modulus blanks were harder to break than lower modulus blanks.

"If this is the case, it is optimal to have one on top and one on the bottom of the rod. Worst case is that the primary and secondary will be at a 45 degree angle. If this is the case, or in the case of a single spine errantly placed at a 45 degree angle from the guides, what happens is when the rod loads in a cast it causes the blank to twist, known as axial distortion or stress."

If you really want to tweak the guy, reference the RodMaker article where Jason Bruner talks about building on the straightest axis... not on spine. Give him a quote and explain who Bruner is...

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Why are you arguing with him in the first place ........... there are still alot of people that agree with Dale Clemmens about the spine and build on the spine ....... it's his blog and his opinion ......... I don't think either one of you are right or wrong ........ there's just different schools of thought ..........

I really don't think the guy is totally out of line at all with his blog. I've heard blab of alot worse from others. IMO spine and just the word spine, is the worst word a fisherman can know. They treat it "the word" like it gives them some secret little thing about rod building and it is thrown around like it's sliced bread!!
As far as Made in China statement.. IMO once something is subbed out to be made by an off shore or even off site manufactuer you are no longer really in control. I have delt with off shore products and if you aren't heating the back of their necks with your breath they can and some will cut corners. It all comes down to what you want.. I buy all Ameriacan made blanks if you don't... fine no big deal!! We live in a Walmart mentality of cheap and now.. so off shore products have prevailed.. The only off shore blank I would even consider buying is from Batson or CTS..

He's repeating things he's heard, some of it based on good information, some on not so good information. "Tinsel Strength" pretty much was a red flag that he doesn't understand a lot of what he's saying (or perhaps he's just a bad speller.) Or that rods go oval only after their graphite fibers "have separated." All rod blanks go oval when they're flexed. He's just paraphrasing things he's heard but which he really doesn't understand.

Any rod blank that must be used in a such a fashion that you can only set the hook in line with the rod spine would be a fairly unmanageable beast. If, according to him, you should put one spine on the top and one on the bottom, does that mean that you can only set the hook on that single axis? Or only cast on that axis? Bass fishing requires a great many different type casts and many of them will be on a different blank axis. Again, he's not really given his statements much thought. And, even Jason Brunner, the guy who designed those blanks he's so high on, commented in a not so distance past issue of RodMaker that their blanks are equally strong on each axis and are built on the straightest axis, not the spine.

We could go on and spell out a dozen other areas where he's a bit off, but there's really no point. What you might want to do, is get his address and send him some information that might help educate him on these things. He's obviously interested in learning so this might be your opening to help out and make a new fishing friend.

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Richard Hahn Wrote:
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> Why are you arguing with him in the first place
> ........... there are still alot of people that
> agree with Dale Clemmens about the spine and build
> on the spine ....... it's his blog and his opinion
> ......... I don't think either one of you are
> right or wrong ........ there's just different
> schools of thought ..........


RH - the point is... he's standing there spouting all this and the blank designer for the rods he's saying are incredible are built on straightest axis - so he knows better than the guy who he just said is the reason they are great? Sorry - but that's the kind of ignorance that gives "pro staffers" a really bad rep and I think they should be called on it.

The bigger issue I see is... the fisherman who has stars in his eyes reading this is going to come in your shop and explain this exact thing after he read it and now you get the job of reeducating the customer. Have fun. Deal with it all the time.

Going to get to hear about 70/30 etc now that Iaconelli has his big rod article on bassmaster.com too.

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If you can get his mailing address, I'll be happy to send him the RodMaker issue with Jason's interview and comments about blank making. I'm sure he would find it interesting and perhaps modify his blog comments a bit. And there wouldn't be any hard feelings on his end towards you. Just let me know.

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Tom, I'll ask him if he is interested. I was trying to find his information and managed to find it on yet another fishing forum that I am a member of. No hard feeling towards him and like others have said, debate on this one could make you blue in the face. I'll let him know and see what he sends, will email you with his mailing address and information if he likes. Thanks.