I have built 2 spinning rods using the concept system and they turned out great. Now I would like to try a casting rod but I don't see a good explanation in the library. It will be a baston RCLB 70L and i plan on using the Fuji Ancolite guides. The reel with be a Abu 6500 series. I assume I should start with a 16 or 12 then go to size 6 guides?? I also don't know how far the first guide should be from the reel face. With the spinning reels it was a simple calculation and a straight edge for the basic layout.

Thanks

This was covered in an earlier issue in RodMaker. The criteria for the butt guide location remains the same as it does for any casting rod. From there, move right down to the smallest guide you can effectively employ. There is no need to use all the available sizes. The straightest line path and least amount of weight will be achieved by moving directly down to the smallest guides that you intend to use. One intermediate guide between the butt guide and running guides won't hurt, but even that isn't always necessary. Casting and fly rods are very simple compared to spinning rods.

...............

Thanks for the reply. I have been a subscriber to your magizine for about a year. I will look and see if I have that issue. Should I start with a 16 or a 12.

I am thinking a double foot 12 then a 8 then 6's for the rest or a 16 , 10 then 6's. ????

I start with 12s on most of my freshwater casting rods and then skip to an 8 and then to 4s or 3s for all the rest. You really can go smaller on the running guides unless you have some sort of large, funky knots or something. Line does not really take up much room in a guide ring.

I have a hard enough time wrapping #6 guides. I am scared to go smaller. lol Besides this is a catfishing rod and will have a hard life. Most of the guys I fish with use $20 rods for everything, so if I get to far off the beaten path, it will just be one more thing I will have to explain. My buddies would never say things like "man u have a small rod" or anything of that nature. We never pick on each other.

True funny story. I have a good friend that has a spinning reel mounted to a casting rod with a trigger reel seat. I have no idea how the fishes with it, but he does. He bought it at one of the discount stores already set up. How he didn't notice the trigger poking him in the hand I will never know. I laugh everytime he whips it out for a day of fishing.

Chris Bettell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
We never
> pick on each other.
>
> True funny story. I have a good friend that has
> a spinning reel mounted to a casting rod with a
> trigger reel seat. I have no idea how the
> fishes with it, but he does. He bought it at one
> of the discount stores already set up. How he
> didn't notice the trigger poking him in the hand I
> will never know. I laugh everytime he whips it
> out for a day of fishing.

You never pick on each other? I thought that was part of fishing with your buddies! LOL

Funny story, it just goes to show that you don't have to have a fancy custom build to have fun. Some of my favorite memories as a kid were when I fished with a stick and some old scrap fishing line and snuck up on some trout. Great times....

jeremy

I thought the concept system was specifically developed for the way line comes off of a spinning reel. Is there any advantage to it on a casting rod?

The concept "system" is primarily the use of smaller guides, in greater numbers. It applies to all rod types, but the means for setting it up on a spinning rod is necessarily different.

....................

Casting rod -

Normally a baitcasting reel is involved. Take a look at the reel. The pawl guide on the reel may be a little round or oval thing the line goes through?

It is real close to the rotating spool -

If it is a round little thing - think for a minute or two.

If you do not required wire leaders, swivels, bobber stoppers, huge knots or other things to go through the guides out on the rod can you give me any valid reason why any guide on the rod needs to be any larger than the little hole in the pawl guide?

A large number of casting rods were sold last month that ALL the guides on the rod were the same size.

Bill,
A couple of reasons.
1. When a line is reeled in, the line goes back and forth on the reel. as a result, the end of the line is moving back and forth. Depending on the spacing of the butt guide, it may be to the fishermans benefit to have a larger guide to ease the movement of the line from the small guides to the moving line guide back and forth on the reel.

2. Depending on the height of the reel spool, it may be beneficial to have the butt guide larger to allow the line that is spooling off a tall spool have an easier transition to the smaller guides up stream on the rod.

Take care
Roger

Chris Bettel if you fish a rod this week with all sixes you will have some high quality company.

Rich Forhan has set up proto type casting rods using all six ring guides to be evaluated by a top knotch Elite this week. The conventional bubble that says baitcasting rods guide sizing needs to be progressive has been busted.

Roger I am very specific in my wording - " The pawl guide on the reel may be a little round or oval thing the line goes through". You will find that the pawl guide on the many of low profile premium bait casting reels used by many fisherman is stationary during the cast. The little round or oval thing does not go back and forth on the cast. If you are worried about the angle of line from the reel to butt guide how do you explain the angle from the spool to the pawl guide. That angle is much more severe and the reels function quite nicely. It is not mandatory that the first guide on a bait casting fishing rod be anything that approaches a 16 or a 12. Many tournament anglers, including Elites, will be on the water this week fishing rods that are all guides are the same size as the "running guides" near the tip.

Can you beleive that I have made two posts on this thread without using the dreaded four letter word?

Bill

That little ring thingy is what about a size 6 - 8 ? Why not set the butt guide to the same size in either a low cast guide or a high frame just to match the hight, then go right to 4s 3s or whatever. ??

Bill - willierods.com

Why not?

That is exactly the what many are presently doing! The question if best answered by those who experiment and test. You will soon discover many differences between conventional wisdom or lack thereof and practical experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 11:20AM by Bill Stevens.

Boettcher -

That guide Stevens is talking about - I just measured 3 different reels - and the inside diameter on each was right about 3mm.

Roger -

If you need height, why don't you place the butt guide further up to reduce the downward angle? By using a lager guide as the butt guide, all you are doing is adding more weight and delaying that angle change until further up. A size 12 on casting rod doesn't make that much difference in line control at 15". Line is moving all over the place inside there and the line is changing angle at the next guide anyway...

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AD

Alex and Bill,
Read and understood.
But, if you carefully read my post, I did not refer to casting, but I referred to retrieving the line.
I agree that during casting, the line guide does not move. Also during a line cast, the line is essentially on a slack line.

I was referring to a retrieve.

If you are making many many casts during a day - in particular some of the heavier action rods when fishing for big fish with very heavy lures, friction makes the work harder.
So, if you have an acute angle as the line comes off the butt guide as it runs to either one side or the other side of the reel during a retrieve, you are doing more work.
On the other hand, if you have a "wider" guide - (this translates to a larger circular guide) the angle of the line as it gets to the reel line guide will not be the distance from the butt guide, but rather from the 2nd guide on the rod, which will typically be much less.

Perhaps, this difference is not significant. I only bring it up, because the clients for which I build heavy action rods designed to throw heavy lures many many times in a day, want to minimize line angle from the tip of the rod to the line guide on the reel.

I do agree that if one is building "typical bass casting rods" with common lure weights of 3/8th to 1/2 oz - the need for this "wider" guide is not that important. Simply put, with lighter lures, the slight increase in friction off the line guides will be next to not noticeable.

Take care
Roger

Old school conventional wisdom said...USE ALL THE SAME TYPE AND SIZE GUIDES. Then we entered the age of using at least each guide size and multiples of the ones up near the tip. NOW we are entering the age where we find that a COMBINATION gets the overall best results. One larger near the butt and then the same size from there. But even then in some applications you can do better by actually using different height or type guides on the same rod!

Thanks for all the input guys. I do have a few more questions. I will be using a Abu Garcia 6500 series reel, how far should the first guide be from the reel? My second question is when ordering a reel seat what is the rule of thumb. The butt of the blank is .810 I believe, so should I order a 20mm seat or a 22mm. I have used the hard foam arbors on my spinning reels and they worked great. So I was thinking ordering a 22mm with an arbor.

This forum is like a very busy intersection in a large city with no traffic controls. I sure hope everyone arrives at their destination safe and sound. The casting rods with all the same size little guide rings have arrived safely. The market acceptance has been astounding.

As fare as I know - The shortest distance between two points -is a straight line

Bill - willierods.com

Chris,
With respect to reel seat, use the size that is most comfortable for your hand and fishing style.

As far as distance for the butt guide from the reel, use the distance that works best for you.
I generally use a distance of from 20-30 inches depending on the rod. Shorter for short rods and longer for long rods. Some folks go as short as 15 inches, but that is a personal preference.

One semi guide is to put the reel on the rod. Put the tip on the rod. Then, keeping the blank straight, run a line from the top side of the reel through the butt guide and then to the tip.
Now, keeping slight tension on the line - with the rod being kept straight move the butt guide back and forth on the line, so that you get to the point where the guide just touches the blank.

If you are uncomforatable with the distance that you find, you can move the guide back and forth a bit to be more comfortable, while still keeping the line angle caused by the line touching the guide to a minimum.

If you are using a fairly tall reel, and when you use the straight line method to position your butt guide and are uncomfortable with the too great a distance from the reel, you might consider going to a larger size butt guide to be able to keep the butt guide distance at a decent distance without causing an excessive line angle as it goes through the guide.


Take care
Roger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 07:36PM by roger wilson.