As have been posted recently, folks are having troubles with the use of Micros on certain rods.

I might suggest that a rod builder needs to ask questions about the potential uses of the rod, the reel to be used on the rod and the line to be used on the reel that will be used on the rod.
Then, whether swivels will be used on the end of the line, whether leaders will be used on the line and what sort of attachments will be used between types of line if there is a connection needed.

I have just seen too many cases that in order go be on the cutting edge of the "best thing" folks sometimes build with components that are not suitable for the intended use.

Just because a size 3 guide works wonderfully well on a certain rod for a certain application and line, does not mean that that size guide will work well on every rod.

Conversely, just because you find a need for a 40 size guide on a rod of a certain rod for a specific application with the use of a certain line does not mean that you need this size guide on all rods.

As with many things, use the right product for the right application.

Micro guides excel for many different rods and different application.
However, they are NOT the right guide for every rod or every application.

Take care
Roger

I don't think anyone has ever said to use micros for every rod application. You always have to take into account how the rod is going to be used to determine which guides are the best to use.

My preference has always been to use the proper sized guides - the ones that will perform the required task and hold up over the long haul. Nothing has changed in this regard. It was true a hundred years ago and it's true now. By always using the proper sized guide/s there are no problems to contend with. And if you do run into problems - you didn't use the proper sized guides.


...............

Roger;
You have just repeated what has been posted at least a 100 times over the last five years when it comes to micro guides.
The same people
That did not read those posts will most likely not read yours after it is gone off the front page. Then they will post that Micro guides don't work or that they are having problems with them. And want someone tell them what went wrong or to bail them out of their predicaments.

Even if you throw out all those Posts on micro guides, their suggested uses, as well as the cautions to make sure they will work in the situation intended.
Tom alone has made the same statement he just posted more times then I can count, and enough that it should be memorized in every ones mind.

But again people will not put forth enough effort to listen, read, or learn so in a couple of days, maybe a week or two. The same question/problem will happen again along with the same answers.

It is also the same reason Mr. Stevens and a few others repeatedly put up the links to the M&M volumes. Because it is easier then retyping the same answers to the same questions over and over.

Steve,
I couldn't agree with you more. It just frustrates me when I see folks making repeated uninformed mistakes that are unnecessary.

Thanks again.
Roger

Steve's Comments x1

Roger - given you find that micros only work in an ideal world [rodbuilding.org], I'm surprised to see you say "...a size 3 guide works wonderfully well on a certain rod for a certain application and line"

My inshore tx clients are using TLSG3.5s with a braid/flouro and braid/mono leader with absolutely no problems passing knots.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2010 03:56PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

Alex,
To repeat, Toms comments.
The right guide, of the right type and size for a particular application will work perfectly every time.

The wrong guide size, type or selction may or may not work for a particular application.

Thanks for the update.
Roger

Steve's Comments x2

Roger you opened this thread with -

"As have been posted recently, folks are having troubles with the use of Micros on certain rods.

What troubles and what specific rods?

I would hold back on thinking that major problems are being experienced. The internet boards are where people who have trouble go to find answers. The other 99 percent of people who are not having problems are not there, so unless you remember that it is easy to think that a half a dozen people represent some sort of major faction. You see five people who have problems with the Common Cents System and suddenly guys think Hey! Theres something wrong with the CCS. Or a dozen guys say they have had a problem with micro guides and guys say, Hey! There are all sorts of problems with MIcro Guides, better not use them!

I think most of this stuff is just isolated incidents that you do not want to read to much into. I will agree that good rod builders should consider all the angles and put the best and most appropriate sizes guides on their rods. But I think its easy to blow stuff out of proportion unless you are able to consider the bigger picture out there.

Let's see-
1. Start thread by making an assertion that there is a problem crying out for a solution;
2. Base the assertion upon a flimsy hypothesis consisting of scant, anecdotal or personally supplied information (to, wit: a "straw man);".
3. Swing at the "straw man" and miss by concluding that there is, in fact, no real answer to the problem and that there never has been and never will be;

Do you think the OEM production rods that will be using the micro guides will all have the same micro guides for all there technique specific rods?

Yes

MIke - based on what I've seen - yes.

Maybe Bill will chime in as he's seen a couple different line ups in person.

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There will ultimately be a problem on many commercially made rods because the makers have no control over how the user is going to rig and fish the rods. This is the reason that most commercially made rods have generally been built to fit a wide variety of possible riggings. When companies decide to cash in on the "micro" craze, they're eliminating any wide margin for error and dialing in a much narrower realm of use. Fishermen who don't understand the limitations will no doubt try to use the rods with rigging and uses that they weren't really designed for. Any problems they encounter will be blamed on the "micro guides" instead of the fact that they choose the wrong piece of equipment for what they were trying to do. And, of course, this makes things harder on the custom builder who then has to re-educate a fisherman who is already convinced that "micro guides" are problematic, that they can be successfully employed in the right application.

But this isn't new - it's been going on as long fishing rods have been commercially produced. The custom builder just has to be able to educate and explain to the fisherman what constitutes the proper guide size and what's likely to happen when proper guide sizing is ignored.

..............

The success of the "micro guides" is apparent. ICAST 2010 now includes 13 Exhibitors who will feature micro rods.

The movement to change SOME SPECIFIC rods started in Rodmaker and this forum. The intitial post on the subject included the goal - TO BUILD A BETTER FISHING ROD! The goal been accomplished by many. Those that build and sell a micro rod with exceptional performance characteristics simply do not care about those who do not.

Those who build, use, sell and evaluate certain forms of task specific rods understand what constitues proper guide selection and never igore proper guide selection parameters. The entire concept is related to proper choice of size of guides. In many cases the proper choice just happens to be called a micro guide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2010 11:01PM by Bill Stevens.

Like Mr.Stevens said “Its just a guide that happens to be small”.
You won't put a 40 on a tip top or a 2 for a butt guide.I don't think
There is a application for a rod like that.
Mikeb

Home Town,Gretna VA

The great majority of posts advocating microguides have been from confessed bass anglers or people who apparently assume micro guide rods will be used with baitcasting reels to fish for bass. I'm beginning to suspect that the advantages of micro guides are diluted somewhat when used by open-face spinning reel anglers, and I know that micro guides have some serious drawbacks when used on fly rods. We tend to assume all people fish as we do, but one type of guide can't be all things to all anglers.

Wait a minute, I'm getting a little confused... "micro guides ... used with baitcasting reels... for bass". That sounds about right.
What's this about "other fish?" Is there any other kinda fish? I heard a friend say he caught a crappie once. Oh yeah, Filet-O-Fish, that's just
fried bass, right?

Phil;
Quote; “I'm beginning to suspect that the advantages of micro guides are diluted somewhat when used by open-face spinning reel anglers”

I suspect your comment is some what delusional.
For the record the second bass specific rod built using Micro guides was a spinning rod, and was built the very same week as the first bass specific micro guided bait caster. Your “suspects” are about as far off base as could be.

I have been building/using both (spinning and bait casting) rods for almost five years now enjoying the benefits of both.
I can also tell you that many of the micro rods being built for inshore saltwater type fishing are also spinning set ups. For one builder I’ve worked with, roughly half of what he is building for inshore stuff using micros is spinning rods.

Personally I think the benefits on spinning rods with Micro’s are greater then with bait casters

Yes I am a confessed bass fisherman, and recognize there are rods and situations were micros are not the best choice. But to classify them as benefiting bass rods more then others, and not as beneficial on spinning outfits is a mistake.

Micro guides may have some draw backs on fly rods, but I wouldn’t know.
The fly rod I built with 3mm Micros works fine, doing everything I intended it to do. I admit this might be considered light weight fly rod since I only throw 8 wt lines on it, and that heavier lines could have a challenge with 3mm guides. But then you could step up to 3.5 or 4 or 4.5’s as your line weights went up.

I know that Mr. Kirkman has built a few fly rods using (I believe 4mm Minima guides) and has been quite happy with his setups.
In conversations with him, I can’t remember him saying that he was having any draw backs. He may correct me when he reads this post.

I believe you will find that in the long run those having problems have not taken the time to learn how to design rods with micros in order to get the best benefits from using them. And that once they learn most (if not all) their problems will go away.