Joe,
You have really nailed the issue.
To put it simply, this particular blank, with its particular power, mass, materials have been created to give a blank that is heavy on the tip end.

As you pointed out, another blank by a different manufacture of similar power does not exhibit this problem.

Just out of curiosity - do you have a caliper to check the wall thickness of the butt section of the blank of this as well as the other manufacturers blank?

My guess is that the blank that is tip heavy will have a fairly thick wall thickness. As the rod is built up toward the tip, this added wall thickness results in a blank that is a bit tip heavier than another blank of similar power with a thinner wall.

-
Summary --
The blank that you have is the blank that you have.
The best situation would to build the rod with the longest possible comfortable butt section to give you the longest balance lever arm.
Use materials and techniques that are in front of the reel to be as light as possible - and still satisfy the needs of the fisherman.

Then, go enjoy the rod.

Take care
Roger

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
.............
> Just out of curiosity - do you have a caliper to
> check the wall thickness of the butt section of
> the blank of this as well as the other
> manufacturers blank?
>
> My guess is that the blank that is tip heavy will
> have a fairly thick wall thickness. As the rod is
> built up toward the tip, this added wall thickness
> results in a blank that is a bit tip heavier than
> another blank of similar power with a thinner
> wall. ................

I just measured a 7' SCII I have here and get .8mm in butt wall thickness, the Benchmark measures 1.01mm, both were similar rated blanks both 7', as I didn't have two 6' 6" blanks handy. I'd say it's most likely the same thing for the shorter version too. I'm wondering if it being thinner is why the butt section feels light in the back end. Not having cut one of these apart, I also can't say what the upper portion is made like. Balance wise, the Benchmark blank is .1oz heavier but when I find the front and rear balance point of the Benchmark rod, it's about 2/3rds of the way from the tip, closer to the handle, on the SC II, it's almost the center of the rod. Meaning that the Benchmark is heavier int he butt end from the start, where as the SCII is about dead even tip to butt end in weight. I strongly prefer the feel of the Benchmark blank.
I sort of got talked into the SCII blanks, I built a few musky/striper rods and these lighter blanks were part of the deal. It would probably make a better light bass or perch fishing rod for freshwater with a full grip and minimal guide layout but I was more going on it's 17lb rating to make use of it for light saltwater use. I'm not sure what the guy that bought these really intends to fish for but I matched them up to a pair of Okuma Baitfeeder reels. He actually wanted me to add more weight, to get the rod and reel up in weight. I put 2oz in the butt cap and left it at that. It balances out well with the reel in hand, but I'd have been using a better reel. We took them out back and he liked the way they cast, and he loved seeing his and his dog's name on the rod).

I think I'll use the blank I use for musky rods for mine, and trim it to my liking. The stouter blank will need fewer guides and therefore less weight. Considering that it'll be fished with 40 or 50lb braid, and toss live bait, I think I prefer to stick with the double footed guides. I may forgo the SIC guides on the next one too, their overkill for a bait rod and maybe go with a Ti frame guide to save weight so long as they won't corrode in the salt. I'll still use either a slick butt or shrink wrap, over either cork or direct on the blank, and the reel seat is pretty much going to be the same.

>
> -
> Summary --
> The blank that you have is the blank that you
> have.
> The best situation would to build the rod with the
> longest possible comfortable butt section to give
> you the longest balance lever arm.
> Use materials and techniques that are in front of
> the reel to be as light as possible - and still
> satisfy the needs of the fisherman.
>
> Then, go enjoy the rod.
>
> Take care
> Roger

This thread initially posed a question pertaining to balance. There are replys that imply that a solution is rear grip length.

The following link presents one solution in a very specific case.

[rodbuilding.org]

There are many cases - angler fatigue using a heavy, long rod all day requires another solution.

Good link, but when it come so the handle length here, the butt end length was done this way for two reasons, first, in two of my boats, both aluminum, when the rod is in the holder, and it's not touching the bottom, it means the reel is sitting or banging against the boat's rail. This makes for some banged up nice reels. Second is my size, the distance from the center of my palm to my elbow is about 16", and I like the rod to rest against my lower forearm while fishing. I also feel I have better feel and control of a rod that's not tip heavy. My main concern was fatigue after a long day fishing. When fishing, the rod is in hand. Since most reels in this size weight from 13 to 20 oz, there's already a pound of weight in hand. Add line and the rod, and even a very light rod weighs in at 6 oz and another 1.5 in line. So you could easily be approaching the 2 lb mark even with a lighter set up. Add a Penn Spinfisher or older reel to that equation and your past the 2lb mark. Those fishing bait with a glass rod are even heavier.

There's also a big difference between the feel or style of rod I'm looking at vs. maybe a super light weight plugging rod or something meant to toss 1/4 oz or so. This set up will be used to toss a sinker and live bait or cut of squid, often getting near the 2 oz mark.

Another thing to keep in mind vs. the other post is that their dealing with a flipping rod and a baitcasting reel, not a small to medium spinning reel.

The guy picked up both rods, there were several guys here that also felt that the counter balance regardless of weight was a big plus, none thought the rod was too heavy but in comparison, their probably out there fishing solid fiberglass or Ugly Sticks.

The buyer and several others took those rods outback and they all took turns tossing a lead weight out in the field. I'm no making two more for two others. These will be on a lesser blank as both asked that the rod be heavier overall, in the 17-40lb class, and balanced to match their Shimano 4500 B baitrunner reels. One guy wants the handle extended to 18" so he can use it for shore fishing. Both want them to be dead even balanced, all stainless guides, double wrapped with the entire guide foot and wrap coated. One wants Ti Gold Amtak guides, the other holographic blue. Surprisingly, neither wants anything written on and both requested no butt wrap and no hook holder loop.
I only hope I didn't start a trend here. I'll run out of lead rope to fill the butt ends with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2010 12:37AM by Joe McKishen.

Joe:

In defense of your customers, they may have requested a heavier blank in order to cast a #16 treble integrated with four ounces of lead, and they may have demanded perfect balance to achieve the sensitivity necessary to determine when the treble comes in contact with the side of a fish, and they ordered a plain rod to preserve anonymity if the rod had to be hastily abandoned. Or maybe not.

Phil,
Added weight will REDUCE the rods sensitivity regrdless of where on the rod you put the weight and whether or not the added weight results in the rod being balanced.

Emory:

I thought more weight would reduce sensitivity too, but reports from people who claim to be involved with professional largemouth catching claim that bulking up their rods in the right places actually increases sensitivity. I have no experience whatsoever with professional bass catching for pay so I am reluctant to contradict the experts.

Phil,
Well, all I can say is those people are flat wrong. I can prove, mathamatically prove, that added weight will reduce sensitivity and I can also measure it. That is unless you have some other definition for sensitivity other than how much of the energy in the fish's bite gets to the fisherman's hand.
I know that there is a lot of talk about balance and sensitivity but to put it very bluntly, most of this talk is just plain @#$%&.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2010 10:35PM by Emory Harry.

I agree with Emory! It is just common sense. Just take a blank, Add nothing, no grips guides or reel seat. Now test the blank for sensitivity. now just start adding temporary weight to the butt section, butt gripe, test it, add a reel seat, test it. Next add a fore grip an test it again. Now add weight to inside the butt section and test it again. I bet the sensitivity was reduced as you added these items. Emory am I wrong here. This would make a great topic in Woodland

Good Wraps Bob

Bass!! Sense when do bass nibble at a plug or spinner bait. Heck I thought they just hit and run. I maybe wrong, sometimes I am. I do little Bass fishing. I am a Ironhead fisherman. Now there is a sensitive biter. They can steal your bait and you wont even know it, Try free drifting eggs

Good Wraps Bob

Bob;
Yes bass do munch and for the most part except on top water stuff the bigger the fish the lighter the bite.
I think a lot of this is due to the chicken yard syndrome
“one chicken garbs the worm and runs before the other little chickens can steal it from him.”
The smaller bass will grab the worm and run to save his meal, while the big bass pick up the worm, looks at the little bass and says; “come a little closer, I’m still hungry” and never moves off with it.

Phil;
Although Mr. Emory and I are on complete opposites on this subject, here are a couple of former posts (the one rather long but worth the reading) that will allow you to look at both sides of this subject from which you can draw your own conclusions on what is correct or important to you and which you choose to believe.

[rodbuilding.org]
[rodbuilding.org]

Thanks Steve for the info. I hope to see Emory in April. Iplan on buying him a sarsaparilla and discus this further . Emory has helped me mensly with mi spelling over the years. Mybi now he can heep me with my punkuations. LOL

Good Wraps Bob

An other thought, if you really want to feel the bite after casting lay your finger under the lift lightly so the line lays on your finger. You will feel the bit faster than you will feel or show it through the rod. The more weight added to a blank the slower the sensation

Good Wraps Bob

Bob;
Question;
Tip is contact point -A
Hand is contact point -B
Butt is contact point –C

If vibration or whatever you want to call it travels from point A to point B and on to point C. Then how does adding weight at the last point of vibration -C- affect the speed of vibration between the first two points A-B?
Or the strength of those vibrations?

I can clearly see how adding that weight to A or B could affect what happens between A and B, but don’t understand how it could impact them when that vibration getting to –C- is an after the fact event?

The practice of adding weight to tools for increased sensitivity should revolutionize the design and production of dental drills, scalpels, and engraving equipment.

Think about it. The vibration traveling just down the line will move faster less resistance, If you are waiting for the vibration to reach the butt. It is all over with. Ever watch a good pro fisher man. their hand is most always in contact with the line

Good Wraps Bob

Phil I use dental tools when Weaving or Thread Art. and a Dremal when cutting blanks or scrolling on a reel seat. Old school hints

Good Wraps Bob

Bob I respectfully disagree.
If you put the butt of the rod in concrete the speed at which the vibrations from point A to point B and hit the hand are still the same. There is no added resistance between point A and B.
Your comment is my point
“If you are waiting for the vibration to reach the butt. It is all over with.”

I feel the bite before the vibrations get to the point of added weight (resistance) not afterwards. Making the argument of added weight affecting feel (that happens before the butt) a mute and inaccurate assumption
And yes I have watched, fished with and around many of those pro bass fishermen you refer to and for the most part many do not hold the line.
The challenge I have with holding the line is that (at least the rods I use) I feel the bite so quickly that I tend to set the hook too quickly missing many of the fish or coming back with half a bait leaving them to chew on the other part because. I did not allow them enough time to engulf the whole thing.

Steve I appreciate your thoughts, but now you are making the concrete part of the rod and the rod is in a vertical position. Which means all the weight is going South, Am I right there? If that is so you are correct, but put the same application with the rod vertical and now all the Physics change. What was not mention are you using a glass rod or graphite rod. So you agree with me line vibration travels faster. We also did not discuss the type of rod, action, power and length. I use a 81/2 med. light or a 10' graphite for Steelhead/Salmon. As for being light biters, there are times the only know a fish is biting your free drifting egg clusters is when you feel your line. as for pre setting the hook I guess it is up to the person know his/her equipment. I have seen Emory's demos and once you see him present it you understand vibration more. As for me I am just a Apple picker and fish eater from WA. that has been building rod for over 30 yrs. I live close to Lamiglas, Garry Loomis and Batson and have had discussions or the this same subject and they all agree with Emory. Unless you understand the Math and Physics (which I don't) but I understand application

Good Wraps Bob

Bob;
The last paragraph was in jest.
Graphite blanks 6-8 ft on length. Med- to-heavy, graphite handles- proprietary arbors- graphite seats (when used) could be concrete pillar with rod protruding 45+/- degrees to horizontal plain if you prefer

For most of the fishing I do were feel (vibrations causing bite detection) is paramount, rods are held closer to vertical plain.

Fishing this way; yes vibrations travel up the line to rod at which time much of that vibration is transferred to the rod at the tip. At which point because of the materials, in the rod being harder then those of the line, transfer those same vibrations faster and more efficiently then the line to the waiting hand grasping the seat.
I do understand that if you are holding the rod with the tip pointing at the bait you will feel more through the line then the blank, but when the tip is pointed up or away from the bait/bite you will feel more through the rod.
A simple application test to assist you in understanding this would be to take a spinner bait cast out and reel back in with the tip pointed at the bait. Then cast out again and hold the rod at 90 degree angle from bait while reeling back.

Compared to you I am a rookie at building, have only been doing so since 1982-83 and I still have much to learn.

Thinking about what you are saying this could be more of an application thing, were fishing as you suggested drifting and such were the rod is pointed more at the bait. The balancing weight could be a disadvantage robbing feel and were the rod is held more vertical the opposite being true.