"At Mud Hole we are the manufacture of the MHX line of blanks â?? more on that below. "

Interesting. I had assumed, wrongly I suppose, that Mudhole was sourcing these from an oriental manufacturer. I had no idea that Mudhole had their own blank making equipment and produced them in their own facility.

Phil, that was my point exactly! That those that complained about advertising dollars do not understand the effects of the advertising in creatting demand.

Good response, Tom

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Phil: My point, and that of several other posters, is that advertising of itself creates neither utility, nor innovation, nor a rational economy. Now, if somebody truly does create a new rod blank or new components with significant advantages which can be described by objective measurement then advertise away, and bless you.
The problem is that not one rod/blank advertisement in a thousand mentions an objective (measurable) attribute, so we are left with the old bushwa about "feel" and "soulful" and "responsive" and "powerful" and "sensitive" - must I go on? Subjectivity is well and good, but I'll stick to my own subjective judgments rather than accept those which commercial (and political) advertisers try to foist on me.

Advertising is very much a part of a "rational economy!" It employs, distributes compensation, identifies features, advantages and benefits of products and services.and supports industries that that are down stream of the advertiser.

One may think advertising is excessive, inaccurate or deceiving, but it is an influence in all our daily lives.

Without advertising there would be no purses in Bass, and golf tournaments or Nascar for example.

JIM GAMBLE:
YOUR QUOTE:
"IF the difference, let's say 10-20%, is going to "make or break" the sale ... I submit that you aren't serving a true custom rod client, you simply fabricated a sale.

Simply put, a sale based on $$$ isn't going to serve your long term business interests as a craftsman - that type of buyer won't be around in 5-6 years. Instead, they will have moved on to a less expensive builder OR the next fad that tickled their fancy.

JIM, you are a smart man and I fully respect you sir, but here are my blunt responses:
My answer is simple: If the blank is 20% more than say a Rainshadow or similar and it kills the sale, then I have done my business or my customer NO good-I HAVEN"T MADE A CENT AND THE CUSTOMER IS GOING TO GO ELSEWHERE! Better to have served a CUSTOMER WHAT HE/SHE CAN AFFORD, and not some diatribe of how much better this blank is.

THE ABSOLUTE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN SELLING FISHING EQUIPMENT OF ANY TYPE, IS TO SELL THE CUSTOMER WHAT THEY CAN AFFORD FOR THEIR NEEDS-PERIOD. And yes, we have an obligation to quantify the varibles, but your customers will love, respect, and return to you forever-I have experienced it more times than I can remember. And its always fun to embarass reps when they come into the shop saying how much further they can cast with this 700.00 rod. I eat these guys for lunch: I strap myslef with a 150.00 rod, take them into the parking lot and proceed to embarass them silly-not intentionally, but to drive home a point.

And as I would love to keep jobs here in the USA, by me purchasing foreign blanks is certainly not gonna make any of the workers at Sage to eat beans and weenies! If your point is that we have to buy USA made rods, then make sure you do not buy any US made vehicle-cause most of it is made over seas. And i agree somewhat about the innovation, but case in point: Johnson practically invented the outboard motor; Honda/Yamaha damm near perfected them.

And what is a "true custom rod client?" To me, a custom rod client is ANYONE that wants me to make him/her a rod-period. Nothing more nothing less. And, not everyone makes 6 figures a year. that wants a custom rod.

I completely disagree with your statment on $$$ isn't going to serve your long term business as a craftsman. I have had more return clients with giving value rather than hype.

So all in all, my philosopy is simple: Sell the customer what they want and can afford after I give guidance along the decision path, educate them on the benefits of a custom rod, and above all, understand they are a custom rod client-regardless of the blank they want.

Paul

PHIL:

Advertising is all of what you said. It's just that the there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many folks on the payroll. And yes, there are many deceptions, non-truths, and embellishing in advertisments. If you believe all advertising, then I have some great desert land here in Alaska to sell you and all.

And if there was a 50% reduction in the big makers advertisments, we would see less expensive products. Not 50% less of course, but less.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2010 07:28PM by Paul Rotkis.

I do not believe all advertising!

I only am making the point that advertising in it's self serves a purpose, whether it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much is only an OPINION, not a fact!

How much is too much is not measurable.

We all have opinions, many based upon a sound basis, others based upon bias's and incomplete knowledge.

Each custom rod maker serves a market, some are more directed toward the PRICE market, others toward the UPSCALE and many serve both to fit the customers needs.

I my self serve an upscale fly rod market, specializing in creative exotic grips, reel seats and themes. So I build upon many name brands at the customers request. If they want my recommendations, I start with the Batson line of blanks and point out the features and advantages of each in their price points.

My whole intent si to clarify that advertising in it's self is not some thing to be derided as it is a very significant part of marketing most products.

If you could walk into a room with all blank manufacturers and distributers represented.
All blanks were factory fresh no blems or seconds.
You could leave with 1 blank only for free.
Who's blank would you select ????
If the top tier guys made thier blems and seconds available at a greatly reduced price would you pick-up as many as you could afford ???
The guys that carry the name Sage, Winston, Thomas and Thomas, make some excellent blanks and spend a great deal of time and effort in failure and sucess in their R&D efforts. That is the price they must place on their blanks to offset the efforts.
The blanks are worth the price they place on them. That's why they can do it and remain in business. If nobody purchased them the price would quickly drop.
WE look for the "value" blank, which is a relative term, to fill the need of our customers. If our customers pull-off the stops the top line blanks would be first choice for every build.

Eugene Moore

I like Eugene's analogy. It really tests each person's personal opinion expressed here. If tomorrow morning you were offered the opportunity to obtain a FREE rod blank of your choice, would you pick a Mudhole MHX or a Sage? A Batson overseas made Rainshadow or a St. Croix SCV? Which WOULD you choose if it were free?

PHIL: Well of course advertising serves a purpose; but thanks for the clarification. And yes, like most things in life, it is just a matter of opinion. You could give two people the same information about an issue and they could come up with two different opinions...

However, advertising is an industry- A HUGE INDUSTRY, an industry that I have many wealthy friends in. Wether that is good or bad, you, can have an opnion on it. And yes, I concur that it is a significant part of marketing products. I remember when the marketing genuises @ Orvis came out with a new rod that was advertised that it had "nuclear submarine technology" that would eliminate "transverse" line waves at the end of each rod stroke. Oh my God...this, like many other types of advertisement hype is what has stained me. Yes, I know, it's hard to see, but I am stained. LOL

EUGENE: Respectfully, I have no idea what your point is, but I would leave with the one that I liked the most...period. So with your statement, do you believe a Sage factory fly rod is worth $700.00? Without any dissertations on how manufacturers price their rods, which I am fully aware of, can anyone here not affraid to be blunt, not tap dance, and respectfully say that the rods are worth it?

Also, I can promise you that the reason Sage is still in business is NOT from the sales of their blanks. Example: G. Loomis. They quit the blank business all together and they will not be folding.

IMHO, Sage has a champion advertisment and marketing firm or staff. If I was their competition, I would do everything I could to hire them. More people have drank that Kool-aid than any other manufacturer.



However, most fly shop owners will tell you that they sell more mid-priced fly rods than any other. Sure they sell a few of the mega buck rods, but depending on the socio-economics in the area, most fly shops sell mid-range rods than any other. I know this is the case in my area, as the shop I worked at was the number one dealer for several years for a major fly rod company.

Anyway, thanks for letting me voice my opinion and allowing me the forum to get on a soap box. My above comments are typed with respect for all. I know they may seem a little direct, but like it has been said, it's only an opiniuon.

Thanks you guys, and may the remainder of your weekend be great and safe. And above all, it's just fishing!

Respectfully,
Paul

Actually, it's not an analogy. There are no similarities. One scenario the rod is purchased, and the other scenario the blank is free.

And if it were a Rainshadow over seas blank as compared to a St Croix SCV....The rainshadow everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. SCV's are clubs IMHO. And I'm not trying to be argumentative; honestly.

Ok, I'm done! Now load up with all the shots and I will take the beatings coming to me!

Paul Rotkis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And if it were a Rainshadow over seas blank as
> compared to a St Croix SCV....The rainshadow
> everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. SCV's
> are clubs IMHO.


Here's a quote from the Batson website ...

Rainshadow® RX8+ Bass Rod Blanks
These are without question the lightest, most sensitive bass rod blanks we offer. They feature our highest modulus carbon fiber scrim material and unique technique-specific actions and tapers. Imagine being able to feel every single bite and being able to feel the subtle differences in bottom hardness when jig fishing. This series of blanks offers what we believe to be the pinnacle of bass blank design. If there is a better blank out there, we aren’t aware of it. These offer jaw-dropping performance that will make all other bass blanks obsolete.


The RX8+ series is built in the US, by a major manufacturer under contract. Batson has carefully stated that THEY aren't aware of a better blank. IMO, it doesn't get much clearer than that.

As I previously stated, imported blanks are a particular value. However, that value is subjective and trying to argue otherwise isn't going to change the fact.

The foregoing posts are an advertiser's delight: completely subjective, without a shred of measurable evidence. It would not be difficult to build a fly casting robot which could be programed to duplicate the ideal flycasting stroke, or even the average flycasting stroke. It would be a simple matter to measure line speed (distance) and deviation from centerline (accuracy). This would separate the bull from the buckwheat and would cost a fraction of what top-dollar rod manufacturers spend on purely subjective ads. BUT . . . the rod/blank industry shuns concrete, objective data.
Why do we allow rod and blank manufacturers an exemption from revealing verifiable data about their products?

A fishing rod is not all about casting! It is also about setting the hook, playing and landing the fish. It is also about appearance and reliability. Find the robot that can measure those features!

Sage, Winston and Thomas and Thomas build top dollar rods.
I've cast all three back to back and IMO they are worth the prices they ask. My own top ten all time list is their domain and I continue to look for others to join them.
I've cast hundreds of other rods and some were a much better value but still fell short of these rods.
They all have certain models which I personally would not pay that much for.
Finish, reel seat appearance, cork quality. I could only hope to aspire to that level and find suppliers of that caliper.

Eugene Moore

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The foregoing posts are an advertiser's delight:
> completely subjective, without a shred of
> measurable evidence.


EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE ... even science itself in some form or fashion.

Imagine how lonely Honda dealers would be if Acuras had an identical price tag!

IF affordability weren't an issue, there REALLY wouldn't be a market for imported blanks - period.

Imports DO have a place in this world, but it isn't as an equal to top quality US made products.

The rod business is very difficult to be in. You sell a guy a 9wt rod and you don't hear from him until the rod breaks. That's why Sage , for example, comes out with the greatest rod they have ever built every year.
Along comes TFO who see a market for a quality inexpensive rod and it turns the market upside down. Their sales go through the roof which forces the high end rod makers to compete with TFO and offer lower priced rods.
So , the market works which is why it has been around for a long time. Just my observations. Bill

Good to know, Mr. McNamara. Of all plugs you could have put on this board, the origin of your blanks was the hook set for me. Is it just the MHX series or the whole Mudhole lineup that's made here? Now, with the utmost respect, if you could focus on your shipping charges a bit, those very reasonable prices on American made blanks would really shine.

Here are two great examples (MHX and Calstar) or top notch affordable blanks made here. One doesn't have to spend $200 on a blank to keep what few components we are able to get from home at home. Now, if someone would just bite the bullet and manufacture a cohesive guide train here (SS, maybe titanium, in Y, V, N, fly down to 3, and one line of matching tiptops--covering the overwhelming majority of what's used), it would actually be feasible to slap that Made in the USA label on products other than fly or heavy roller rods (cork gets a bye since we can't grow it). I'd certainly be one who would pay more in exchange for the piece of mind and the benefits that come with that all important logo.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

Jason -

You misunderstood Tom's post. MHX blanks are not made in the US ... they are designed, specified, inspected and distributed in the US - but not manufactured. They are quality blanks and for many builders, and their clients, they can be a very good value.

Mud Hole does have a line of blanks (under their label) that are US made - the Custom Rod Builder Inshore Series. They are made by Lamiglas under contract ... [www.mudhole.com].

BTW, the shipping charges that are charged are fair IMO. If you had to pay the bills for packing materials and the labor to process the shipments, you would probably end up RAISING the prices - not lowering them. By far and away, shipping and handling is one of the most laborious and expensive endeavors at any distribution center. To lower your costs, I suggest buying in quantity ... making larger purchases allows you to take advantage of spreading the singular expense over a wider base.

In respect to additional US made components ... give REC Components a try. They offer reel seats and guides (spinning and casting) which you MAY find to your liking. The Nickel Titanium RECoil guides are unique - flexible, non corroding and very light. Of course, there is the lack of a ceramic insert - which does cause "singing" ... some hate it, some absolutely love it. But at least you have another product to look at. REC's product line is sold by a couple of distributors on this board ... [www.reelseats.com].

BTW, I am glad to see you asking questions and looking for answers ... that's what it takes to build a superior product, domestic or otherwise.

Jim -