I don't know which if any blank/rod makers are publicly held, but if they issue stock it is possible to compare their spending on research and development to their spending on promotion and advertising. I'll hazard a guess that for the most expensive blanks/rods the investment in R&D lags far behind the money spent on advertising and promotion.

Jim,

Very well said.

jeremy

I tend to look at things a bit more simplistically. If I can buy, say, a MHX blank for $45 retail, and the comparable blank in a US brand costs $240 retail, and I add 50% to the cost of the components, the MHX blank costs the customer $67.50 and the US blank costs them $360. That means, all other things being equal, my customer is going to pay $292.50 MORE for a rod where all the other components remain the same. If I buy wholesale at $144 for the US blank and $27 for the MHX, then the difference is $117 MY COST.
If I let my client go to Mudhole and purchase either blank (at retail) and bring the blank to me for building (I do NOT do this), they are going to experience a price difference of $195. That might not be a big deal for some clients, but it could be a deal breaker for many others.

One of my missions at the ICRBE this year was to have a look at the Batson and Castaway blanks. I have been VERY favorably impressed with the MHX blanks and have build a boat load of them. So far EVERYONE using them absolutely loves them. Never having seen the Batsons or the Castaways (but having heard about them almost DAILY on the board), I have been very curious about them.

I am teaching a 16 year old tournament-level bass fisherman (also an avid fly fisher on the flats) to build fishing rods. He wanted a 9' blank for a rod that will throw 9 and 10 wt. line. Extra-fast action, reasonably light weight...and his father was hoping for a parts cost of around $150 or thereabouts.

I found him a Batson RX8 blank...4 piece, ex fast action, rated for 9 wt. line. I got a full wells cork grip at the show (will allow a recessed hood seat build) and an American Tackle window seat with a woven graphite insert. I added some Batson saltwater guides, some Cason's solvent-based color preserver, and some of the new(er) U-40 Quick Set Rod Bond. I have a sample of Diamond 2 Lance gave me (I bought a larger quantity for myself), and some thread. Like the McDonalds of the old days, my student's dad got change back from his dollar.

I looked at Sage and St. Croix. Previously we had looked at Orvis. The blanks alone came in above his total budget.

Now, if I were building a rod like this to sell, using those same components, It would be in the $375-400 range. If I used the same blank but MADE the grip, Recoil or Titan titanium guides, perhaps upgraded the reel seat a bit, and added a feather inlay or a weave, we would be looking in the $500 range.

If I used a Sage or Orvis blank? Add another $200-300 or more. I mean really, why would I build a custom rod and sell it for less than a factory rod that used the same blank and possibly lesser-quality components?

But the basic question here was this: is there a quality difference between the import blanks and the US made blanks that justifies such a huge price difference? Well, I don't see it. My clients (when casting the finished rod) don't see or feel it.

As for the "buy American" angle, consider this: with the exception of the MHX, I can't think of another US blank manufacturer out there that can survive by making blanks for custom builders alone. Custom builders represent a very small percentage of a blank manufacturer's market. I believe NFC is already making blanks for other companies. Shimano NEVER could have made a go of it selling just blanks to custom builders. Indeed, that market was so small they made the decision to eliminated it entirely.

Mudhole (MHX) has said their blanks are for the custom builder ONLY. I know when I buy a Batson or a Castaway or a MHX blank that I am going to be building a rod that is not obtainable in a factory-built model. If these blanks are as good as their American-made counterparts (and I truly believe they are), they allow the custom builder to actually make a decent profit on a rod while providing outstanding value to their client. As for the Batson Rainshadow and Forecast blanks and the Castaways, suffice to say I returned home from the show with a truckload. It does my heart good to know that Scott and Lance were also weighted down...with my money. An equitable trade. I got EXCELLENT value for my greenbacks.

And should a cash-burdened customer have his or her heart set on a rod built on the latest and greatest blank made by NFC, Sage, Orvis, Winston, etc...well, step in to my shop, sonny.

I guess the only way a builder can PROVE to a customer that the more inexpensive blank is as good, is to build it and let him use it.
What else can ya do

Bill - willierods.com

I like the way you talk Jim Gamble.

The old saying "Quality Aint Cheap and Cheap Aint Quality" dont really hold true anymore. You have to ask though, where does it go from here?

"Mudhole (MHX) has said their blanks are for the custom builder ONLY."

Mudhole might have said that, but I haven't heard the same thing from their supplier...

Money talks, but how would we know they were being sold to an OEM? You won't.

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Gary,

I agree. I would never pay more than $100 for any freshwater blank, even if they were gold laced, unless the customer insists. These are degradable tools, after all. I was strictly speaking of the affordable U.S. made blanks. Rainshadow is another that falls into this category. Batson is up front about the fact that they're a bit higher than the Forecast line due to the U.S. manufacture, but still no where near that $240 kick in the gut.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

For me it is a non issue as to where a blank is made as I have to import them all. To me the quality that I get from the MHX, Batson and Castaway line up and at a very attractive price point makes my mind up for me and my customers.

Rolly Beenen
Rovic Custom Rods

Not everyone buys on price! If they did, only the cheapest would sell and that includes custom made rods.

Manufacturers like Winston, Sage, Loomis, St. Croix and others spend $$$$ researching and developing the technology and materials that make today's rods. For those that attended Gary Loomis's presentation at the recent ICRBE you heard his story of the development and financial issues he faced in starting G. Loomis! The copiers do not have to recover those costs.

If the innovators and developers were to go out of business, what's left to copy?

Sure the big name brands are probably over priced, but not as much at the wholesale level as most believe. The retailer also has to make profit and he has an inventory investment that consists of many slow moving items. To recover these costs he must make margin of profit to enable him to stay in business. Sadly this is creating a change in the demographics of retail sales of fishing tackle in general and fly fishing specifically. With inter net, and big box stores like Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops the small local fly shop is going the way of the DoDo Bird. The result of this has more than an impact of the sale of rods, it includes no longer having a local source for rod building, fly tying and fly fishing supplies.

It is easy to single out advertising as big bucks misspent, but it is what creates the demand for branded products.

Jason Cosby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was strictly speaking of the
> affordable U.S. made blanks. Rainshadow is another
> that falls into this category. Batson is up front
> about the fact that they're a bit higher than the
> Forecast line due to the U.S. manufacture, but
> still no where near that $240 kick in the gut.


Jason -

Just to clear things up ... Rainshadow blanks are NOT all made in the states. ONLY the blanks in the RX7+ and RX8+ series - the "+" is the indicator of US manufacturing.



As a general note -

I have no doubt that offshore productions (or should I say reproductions) offer a particular value. However, they are NOT equal to top-tier US product lines, it just isn't so - no matter how you wish.

I believe that the additional 10, 30 or 50% of performance is worth the increased expense for clients seeking the very best. Obviously, not everyone does - I accept that fact.

I guess my angle on this goes beyond who we're buying from to where we're buying from. As I type this, my ears continue to ring as they have since I returned from Iraq and I have to shift to keep the crushed disc from locking up. While I was there and every day since, it was and is my biggest prayer that the sacrifices of many would ensure that this country would flourish and continue to do so for our children. Are rod blank sales going to ensure our prosperity? Nope, but it's a small piece.

None of us can be oblivious to the costs of things, no matter where they're made. Buying something just because it's made in the U.S. for 2 or 3 times the cost just won't fly. I have used Calstar to illustrate a point, but they're not the only ones. Leon was with Sabre during the early days when innovation was thick and for 19 more years. He was the lead innovator, creating many of the blanks that are now being copied. That's why it baffles me why folks wouldn't want to buy very reasonably priced blanks from someone who is one of those innovators and get a product that simply can't be beat. Apparently, Leon had other methods of paying for his R&D after leaving Sabre. He also doesn't advertise, which is probably the biggest contributor to keeping costs down. No reason not to buy American in this case.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

Thanks for clearing that up, Jim. Guess I'm a bit behind the power curve on that one.

Jason Cosby
Cos Rods

Gary, If you really think a Mudhole MHX blank is equivalent to a top of the line St. Croix, Sage, Loomis, etc., then I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Not saying they are not good, but at the manufacturer's ends the $45 blank costs about $10 to produce. How much quality and performance do you really think you are getting for that amount? Do you even know who builds them and where they come from? Can you talk to the person that runs the company that makes them? If you have a failure can you return it direct to the manufacturer and discuss the issue with them?

If you are happy with those blanks then use them. I am sure they are good blanks. But when my customers ask for the best, I will give them that and I cannot buy the best for $45.

In the end each of us has to buy and use the blanks we are comfortable with. There is no right nor wrong. Use what you have confidence in and what your customers desire.

My point wasn't that they are the best. I would never make that statement.
What I DID mean is they represent a tremendous VALUE to the customer. I have some customers who only want Sage blanks. I am happy to build on them...the rods are wonderful, the customer is happy, I am not the one paying the price, and life is good.

However: if ALL I offered were NFC, Sage, Orvis and St. Croix blanks, I could kiss about 90% of my potential customer base goodbye. There are LOTS of fishermen willing to pay for a custom rod, and pay more for it than they have been paying for factory rods. However, when you hit the 4-500 range, the potential number of customers falls off rapidly.

And Jim, while I agree with everything you have said, consider this: somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the fishermen buying rods cannot tell the difference between a rod built well on a MHX or a Rainshadow blank and one built on a St. Croix or a G. Loomis (yeah, I still have some of those in stock). They still want a nice rod...something they can have customized to suit their tastes...and a MHX with a well positioned, appropriate guide train will be head and shoulders above an "off the rack" Berkeley or Garcia or Diawa at the Big Box store. So again, everyone wins.

Alex...I agree with your point about those blanks possibly being offered by their manufacturer...but they won't be called the MHX...at least that's something. Remember who used to make Cabela's blanks? Great blanks at a great price. Nothing to identify the manufacturer...if there was, his sales might have taken a big hit.

The blanks sold by Cabelas were not G. Loomis blanks. They were made by G. Loomis, but they were not the same as the G. Loomis models. Most blank manufacturers build for and to certain levels of performance and price points. What they build for the OEMs or other markets are not necessarily the same models as what they build for themselves. The idea that they are the same blanks is a common misconception, however.

............

I always cringe at these topics. Better is always going to be subjective. Blanks, cars, homes, everything has different categories broken down by price. It's pretty sad to see people driving Saturns saying Ferrari's are way overpriced and a rip off, and it's just as sad to see people with a Bentley snubbing thier noses at somoene driving a Volvo. If you pay for something, are satisfied with it - then you got a bargain and great value; regardless of the price. If you get somethign which you are not happy with, it's a piece of crap and was a waste of money;, once again regardless of price.

I do find it funny to see there are so many micro-economic majors who are building rods.

Phil, you spoke of the ease of complaining "advertising as big bucks misspent." Misspent? Far from it, in fact, very well spent. It is advertising which convinces people to spend $800 for a flyrod which 98% of us could not distinguish from a few $300 rods in a blind casting test. It is advertising which convinces people that the fly rod has been re-invented every year, and they need to buy the newest (and priciest) model .
Anglers, like investors and voters, are engaged in an ongoing struggle to distinguish between reality and wishful fantasy. For anglers the stakes are not so high.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:

> Anglers, like investors and voters, are engaged in
> an ongoing struggle to distinguish between reality
> and wishful fantasy. For anglers the stakes are
> not so high.

No, fishing is not a matter of life and death. It's MUCH more important than that.

An interesting thread, a long thread, so here’s and equally long answer.

A few points on the MHX blanks:
Yes they are offered to Custom Rod Builders only, no OEM is buying them.

At Mud Hole we are the manufacturer of the MHX line of blanks – more on that below.

Yes they are as good if not better than 85% of the top of the line blanks from other manufactures costing 10x more – don’t believe us, read what others are saying, try one out and make up your own mind.

Re “copy” verses “original” confusion – Mud Hole may have been guilty of this in our effort to explain the MHX line up of blanks to our customers. Mud Hole was G Loomis’ largest blank distributor when G Loomis announced they were going to stop selling blanks – we knew a void in the blank market would need to be filled (you see G Loomis had done this before and we lived through that – Mud Hole’s been around 35 years, you learn a few things. So right off the bat we took the best selling models and had them replicated or copied while supervising, modifying and testing the proto types. (the whole “copy” idea in the blank business is a convoluted, long and lengthy conversation with many interesting characters, several law suits, bankruptcies and several shall we say “interesting” business deals– we’ll just say this, blanks – meaning the patterns and mandrel tappers, have been copied for a long, long time in the US not just offshore). As any blank manufacturers will tell you, if you just copy a blank you get junk, you have to have a deep understanding of the blank manufacturing process, mandrel tappers, material properties and layups, blank actions and fishing applications to “copy” a blank and have it work as it is intended. There are more poor copies of blanks than good copies – often the original blanks intent is lost.

Not satisfied with just replicating popular standard models, Mud Hole let loose our current employees to design and/or improve on new/existing models. You see lost in the MHX conversations are the employees behind the MHX line at Mud Hole. Mud Hole currently employs, without question, the most talented and experienced group in the rod building community. Mr. Todd Vivian, VP of Mud Hole sales, was the production manager for Lamiglas for the last 19 years – from machinery to make blanks to the materials to make the blank –Todd knows it all, not just talk but first hand knowledge. In his 19 years at Lamiglas thousands upon thousands of blanks and finished rods we designed and produced under Todd’s supervision. He is an expert in the field, one of only a handful in the US, who is often called upon by other manufactures to help diagnose blank manufacturing problems. Todd’ talent helped design the MHX line - he oversees the materials, pattern design & mandrels used in the MHX line. Mr. Bob McKamey, VP of Mud Hole Customer Service, was the former owner of Custom Tackle Supply, he has been in the custom rod industry his whole life, 30 plus years! He is one of the most knowledgeable people in the rod building industry – he has attended and hosted more rod building and fishing seminars than we care to count. Capt Scott Gimbert, formally Fish-n-Fanatic owner in NJ and current Mud Hole manager, has been in this business his whole life as well. Add to them the 20 plus Mud Hole employees who all build rods (see this year’s catalog cover for a sample of their work) and you get more experience in rod blanks than most “blank manufactures” in the USA have – all at your disposal at Mud Hole and all of whom collaborated to produce the MHX line. The results of these lifetime(s) of experience is the MHX line of blanks –which in most cases are better blanks than the blanks they were originally designed to replace.

Beyond the original MHX models, you’ll see completely new and unique blanks being released by Mud Hole adding to the MHX line which are not “copies” but original designs or improvements to existing models to make them more application specific.

So not all the blanks in the MHX line are “copies” – we have the time, talent and treasure to R&D blanks, we have built proto types, we test them, we cast them, we break them, we refine their designs, we are innovating new designs.

And it’s not just a question of blank designs – the MHX line up of blanks has brought with it a completely new approach to selling, servicing and warranting blanks – things like individual serial numbers, lifetime transferable warranty’s, available only to custom rod builders, application specific specifications, – MHX is the only place you can get that – US made or offshore.

Because the MHX blanks are only manufactured and sold to custom rod builders, unlike all other manufacturers, with the MHX line up of blanks you don’t have to be concerned with “rod quality” or “blank quality” blanks – with an MHX blank only one quality is available – Custom Rod Builder Quality. Knowledgeable rod builders expect more from a blank, they demand a higher standard, they understand price vs quality (see this thread), they appreciate the fact a blank is only available to them where they don’t have to compete with mass produced rods and the mass marketing used to sell average rods to fisherman.

Again, don’t let the price fool you (we’ll gladly charge you $200 each for an MHX blank if it makes you feel better). Read what others are saying and try one for yourself, if you’re not completely satisfied simply return it for a full refund.

Read more about the MHX blanks or order one today to see what all the talk is about at:
[www.mudhole.com]

Thanks for your time.

Regards.
Tom McNamara, President

Team Mud Hole Custom Tackle
Web: [www.mudhole.com]
Email: tom@mudhole.com
Toll Free Phone #: 1-866-790-RODS (7637)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2010 05:04PM by Mud Hole Custom Tackle.

hay Tom

How about fly blanks ??

Bill - willierods.com