I just finished reading this article contained on the SE CD "Guides" - several times. It's a very interesting concept but for me it did raise a few questions. All of the questions are relative to a spiral wrap configuration and micro guides.

In qualifiying this article Rich sets the application to a 1-2-3-4 power rod but doesn't seem to indicate the rod application which infers application independence. What I've come to understand, which doesn't make it true, is that within each blanks application specifications the power rating from applications shift a tad. What I mean by that is a fast action crankbait blank with a medium power rating is not at all the same as a blank with same rating but has an intended application for jig fishing. If I am incorrect in this assumption then all of my questions would probably be answered by having that misconseption cleared up.

In the article micro guides were not necessairly included nor were they necessairly excluded. Does this concept apply to micro guides?

Tip to first guide spacing. Supported by the 5# static weight test, pressure on these guides is minimal to the point of being almost nonexistant and the spacing seems to be perfectly logical. Logically the weight on the guides follows the loading pressure. With 5#'s of load the tip is now pointing towards the load and again logically the load on the associated tip and first few guides will be minimized. What impact would rod reaction time play here? By that I mean considering a blanks inherent design qualities to resist flexing. Is it possible that on a rapid hook set the expanded guide spacing at the tip - the first guide from the tip - would place undue pressure between those two guides before the rod could transfer the power down the blank and therefor create a failure condition? I don't recall the article addressing line type but I am thinking braid relative to all the questions I asked.


Lastly - micro guide tip failure. I've read several post indicating that a micro guide tip has failed apparently due to excessive loading in a spiral wrap configuration. Based on the information contained in this article and my ability to comprehend it, it appears to me that in any conditions short of high sticking pressure on the tip is going to be minimal simply because the tip is going to deflect when minimal pressure is applied. Once the rod is loaded the tip is pointed towards the load and actually reduces loading on the tip - from my understanding. Is micro guide tip failure only associated with blanks designated fast/heavy and not an issue on slower tips with less power? Logically that would seem to be the case, but I don't know so I'm asking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 09:48AM by Doug Weissinger.

You are correct that rod manufacturers power ratings are only relevant within a specific family of blanks. Yes an extra heavy crankbait rod won’t have nearly as much power as a medium heavy flipping stick. Maybe I am a little too cynical but I believe that a lot of the confusion is deliberate, it is not in the manufacturers interest for you to be able to make an easy comparison of their rods to their competitors rods. When you need a new rod they want to keep you in their family.

As far as the tip failure, I think the situation is that some of the micro tips are not braced. So when they are used either with a spiral wrap or spinning rod, with the guides on the bottom of the rod, the unbraced tips do not hold up.

If you want the blank to behave and perform exactly as it was designed, then you should forego the guides and just tie the line to the tip.

As long as you use a sufficient number of guides on any rod you do not need to worry about excessive amounts of stress occurring between any pair of guides. A 7 foot rod with 7 or 8 guides is going to flex and progressively load much as it would if you hadn't used any guides at all. That same 7 foot rod with just 3 or 4 guides might have problems, however.

If you have the CD, you also have an article that explains, both in pictures and in words, how a blank handles any applied load and what happens if you do not employ enough guides.

............

That information is most likely pre-micro - so no - not applying to micros although I suspect some of the same concepts could be applied.

Rod power ratings for Mag Bass blanks are usually different than hot shot, back bouncing, etc. Even within the same manfacturer.

Most of the blank flex is deeper than 3-4" from the tip. Go load up a couple rods and look. Small amount of flex at tip - very small on most. Tie off to a bumper and set a hook. See if the flex changes. I'm sure you can force flex, but a natural swing you won't.

Watch yourself asking about pressure between two guides.. you're getting into talking about a bowstring effect - [rodbuilding.org]

Biggest issue with braid is being "overloaded". Example - 80# braid. Blank gives first. When there is a certain amount of pressure, the weakest point is going to give first.

Micro tip failure - braced or unbraced tips?

-----------------
AD

Tom - I understand what you said but it provided little in the way of expanding my knowledge relative to the specific questions I asked. Please recall that all these questions were relative to the 5-6-7-8 concept which strictly defines guide count and spacing.

If I take a 2x4 piece of lumber and drop X#'s of weight on it it will shear and fail. If I were to take the same X#s of weight and gradually load the 2x4 it will support the load without failure. That was the basis for the question relative to the ability of the rod to transfer the load. Yes, I have the CD and so stated that fact in the original post. All of the pictures and supporting text address gradual loading of the rod - that wasn't the quesiton I asked.

I asked also if this concept applies to micro guides with the compelling reason for the question relative to guide height and acceptable line/blank contact.

Your 2x4 might fail in that scenario, but it won't be a shear failure unless you have it rigidly supported somewhere along its length.

Likewise, you would be hard pressed to cause a shear failure in rod blank unless you set the blank on a hard edge somewhere along its length and then suddenly apply the load. If you do that it will shear at the point of rigid support.

If you use a sufficient number of guides on your rod blank, the location where it will fail from overload, either in a steady application of force or from a sudden application of force, will in the same place. The only way you'll create a problem is to use too few guides which will result in some portion of the blank, most likely in the upper 1/2, to move well beyond a 90 degree flex. This will hold true in either application of the force. The only thing that changes is that less weight or effort is required to generate that force if it is done suddenly rather than slowly.

..............

Better yet... I’d suggest you do this - buy about a dozen rod blanks of the same make and model. Due to the method employed in manufacturing a rod blank, they won’t be absolutely identical, but if it’s a quality manufacturer they’ll be reasonably close.

Affix the butt securely and begin loading the tip of the bare rod blank. A bucket in which you continue to slowly add water works well. Continue until it fails (it will fail back near the point of rearward support with possible additional shock failures ahead of the initial break). Do this with 3 or 4 of the blanks and arrive at an average break location. They’ll all be very close.

Now put your guides on the rod and load the blank via a line which has been affixed and run through the guides. Repeat the above. Note where the blank now fails. If you used a sufficient number of guides, the location of the break will be in about the same location as before. Do this with 3 or 4 blanks and note your results.

Now repeat this procedure but this time allow the load to quickly come upon the rod blank (fill the bucket with water, hold it up and just drop it). Note where it fails. Do this with 3 or 4 blanks.

At this point you’ll know what you want to know about that particular guide set up and won't have to rely on what anyone else is telling you..


..................

Just to clairfiy what I "heard" you say. Irrespective of rod velocity 5" tip to first guide conserns on an 8' rod in the power ranges noted in the article are a non-issue? Correct?

On the micro tip top bracing issue:

A brace is designed to carry loads in tension, compression or as a structural add redundant member.

Fishing rods are built where the tip top brace may be loaded in tension (on top) or compression (spiral).

The small ring of the micro guide using current production rods create an arc from the attachment point on the ring frame to the tube.

Get one of the new Fuji Micro Micro Tops and place it flat on a surface where you can observe the gently outward bow in the design.

This frame will carry the loads of hook set when in tension - I am quite sure that Fuji has the number of pounds that was used as the load limit for this guide.

The dimensions and placement of the curved bracing on the Fuji will fail in compression if used on a spiral heavy duty flipping stick on hook set - it simply folds and crushes due to overload - this problem is presently being worked and hopefully the solution will be available quite soon.

The micro tip tops are a work in progress and the manufacturers are working the issue.

Tom - apparently we posted at virtually the same time. Wherewithall to purchase the quantity of blanks you recommended aside. I was under the assumption this site is provided to eliminate the need to "reinvent the wheel" when questions arise. But seemingly that is what you are suggesting I do. And I may provided someone else doesn't have task specific test results or experience relative to the specific questions. I seem to denote you have a certain degree of iritation with my questions, though I'm not sure why. Granted some of my questions may seem stupid to you and they may well appear stupid to me as I gain experience. If you prefer I ask my stupid question else where I'm more than willing to do so - but doesn't that kind of defeat your stated purpose of this site?

You're reading way too much into this. I simply provided some answers to your questions. I see no irritation in either of them.

What I was suggesting, is that if you don't believe what you are reading, or are not able arrive at a concensus from a variety of responses, you always have the option of trying things for yourself. More builders need to do this.

If your question is specifically whether or not you can get a rod blank, with a first guide located 5 inches beyond the tiptop to "shear" off in that space by the sudden application of load, the answer is no. And as I said, if you don't believe it, try it.

................

My real consern was instantaneous bow string effect failure due to the inability of the blank to transfer the load prior to reaching the failure point between the tip and first guide. The 2x4 analogy was the closest I could come up with in my attempt to better define the question - I just didn't know how to phrase it at the time.

Bill - Thanks for the information. It let me know what I need to be conserned about when building spiral wrap rods with varying degrees of action/power.

I didn't know this article was pre-micro either. Now I do because of a considerate response to my question. Thank you Alex.

There won't be a bowstring effect unless the guides are too far apart. And that doesn't change whether the load is applied slowly or suddenly.

The article was written for all guides, macro or micro, or whatever you want to call them. The dynamics involved didn't change with the advent of micro guides.

.........

Tensile strength does drop as a load is applied more and more rapidly but a fisherman setting the hook cannot apply a load to a rod rapidly enough to have a significant affect on the strength under tension or under compression. I looked this up a year or so ago and do not remember the numbers but I do remember that the load had to be applied very rapidly to have a significant affect on the strength.

Exactly, and a fisherman working within the confines of average human ability and the length of most fishing rods isn't going to be able to create the necessary velocity to create a problem in this regard. It's a non issue.

Keep in mind also that Rich Forhan is a very practical guy - he would be the first to tell you that his rods won't cast the farthest, but they will cast more than far enough to do what they were designed to do. He'll tell you that he builds his rods lightly enough to provide the sensitivity he requires but not at the expense of being able to do what needs to be done in all other areas. As you read more of Rich's articles you'll find that he never goes overboard in areas which he feels are beyond the requirements of what his rods were intended to do.

...........

Emory not sure if you post was related to the blank or the braces on the tip top frame.

"fisherman setting the hook cannot apply a load to a rod rapidly enough to have a significant affect on the strength under tension or under compression."

If it was related to the braces on the frame your are incorrect. I have the new Fuji micro tops in service and they are fine on top and the same identical fisherman will fold them on a spiral rod built on the same blank. The design of the part is crucial to the load bearing capabilities of the frame.

Bill,
I was referring just to a carbon fiber rod. I do not know anything about the Fuji micro tips.

Doug,
You are asking about guide placement and trying to determine if there is a difference between micro guides or non micro guides.

Remember, a guide serves one purpose and one purpose only. A guide is used to allow fishing line to follow the blank in both an unloaded and a loaded state.

If you are speaking of casting rods, and if you are wrapping a conventional casting rod, with micro guides compared to conventional guides and if you are concerned about the line touching the blank - the only difference in guide spacing is that you will need more micros to keep the line off the rod.

If you are speaking of a spiral wrapped casting rod, or if you are speaking of a spinning rod - there is little or no difference in the number and spacing of the guides being used - when you compare non micro to micro guides.

Hence, your questions apply equally to both the world of non micro as well as micro guides.

The question of guide selection and spacing comes up all of the time. The only thing you really have to worry about is that if you are concerned about the line touching the blank in a casting rod configuration - you use enough guides of the appropriate size to keep the line off the blank - if you care about this aspect of casting rods -(many folks don't worry about a line either touching or dipping below the blank in a stressed blank configuration.

Then, in a spinning or a spiral wound configuration - as well as a conventional casting rod - you simply need as many ( but just enough) guides as necessary to allow the line to follow the contour of the fully loaded and stressed blank.

i.e. if you have a flexible blank - you need more guides. If you have a stiff blank - you need fewer guides. If you have a shorter blank - with the same stiffness, you need fewer guides than with a longer rod of the same stiffness.

This part of rod building is not rocket science - don't overthink it. When placing guides, put a tip on the rod and thread the line through it - stress the rod a bit by pulling down on the tip - not a lot - just a bit to get the rod to began its bend. As you see the line depart from the natural line of the line from the rod to the tip - you first place a guide at the point of quickest departure. Then simply continue the process so that you have placed the fewest number of guides possible to allow the line to continue to follow the natural curvature of the loaded blank.

Good luck
Roger

If something was to hit the line fast and hard enough it would seem like the rod would shatter or fly apart?