Doug,
You are right that the higher the tension on the line the higher the amplitude of the vibrations coming up the line will be. The tension on the line plus the mechanical impedance of the line are the two primary factors as far as the line is concerned. The mechanical impedance is determined by the mass density (mass per unit of length) and the elasticity (stretch). Braided line is dramatically better than mono in terms of sensitivity because it has much lower mass density for its strength than mono and braid is also much better than mono in terms of elasticity, it will stretch much less than mono.
However, some of this improvement in sensitivity is thrown away by most fishermen because they use much stronger braid then the mono that they would use for the same fishing situation.

Something I became aware of in the last couple weeks - it has been a long time since there has been an actual improvement or advancement in rod building materials/fibers. But, there is something available now that just may find itself into fishing rod and blank manufacturing before very much longer. It would represent the first major advancement in a carbon rod fiber in a decade or more.

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Tom,
We're listening, what is it? I assume that you are referring to something other than nano-fibers.

A new higher modulus carbon fiber with properties suited to making fishing rods.

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That is great news.
It does not make much sense to only increse the modulus of elasticity of the material because the strain energy goes down directly with increased modulus of elasticity. Have they increased the strengths, tensile and compression? The strain energy actually goes up twice as fast as the increase in strength. A doubling of strength will result in four times the strain energy. In my judgment an increase in strength and the resulting increse in strain energy would result in an even bigger improvement in todays blanks then an increse in the modulus of elasticity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 09:15PM by Emory Harry.

Yes, yes and yes. That's what makes it a good material for future use in fishing rods. If the only important thing was a higher modulus, there are already plenty of other fibers to chose from.

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Emory,
Forgive me for jumping in here but you just turned a light on in my head as well. In regards to the use of braided line I think we all can agree that it is inherently more sensitive. You made the statement that most fishermen throw away some of this inherent sensitivity by utilizing a much stronger braid than they would otherwise use in a mono. I am going to assume ( a terrible idea I know) that the cause of this is an increase in the mass density? If this is true, then perhaps should I rethink the use of heavier braid in certain situations.

Great thread!

Victor,

You can go overboard with this sort of thing. In terms of any practical difference - what the human senses can actually detect, some things just aren't worth worrying about too much as you'll never know the difference. Having said that, I do build as light as I can in every respect.

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Thanks Tom.
I try to keep as much weight off the rod as posssible while keeping it user friendly. I think we reach a point of diminishing gains and as such have to walk a fine line if you will between user friendlieness and outright performance. What I am wondering is why using a heavier braided line is going to have even the slightest affect on the sensitivity of the line.

Victor,
Your assumption is correct, it is due to the higher mass density. The loss in sensitivity due to the fact that many fishermen use much stronger braided line than they would use if using mono.

Thanks Emory.
I will have to rethink my choice of line this spring. I normally run #25-30 lb braid where I would normally run only #12-15 mono. I will have to weigh the trade off of lower strength against the loss of sensitivity (if it is noticable). Now I just have to wait for the ice to clear off the lakes here for some field testing.

As Gary said, "this is an interesting Thread". I fish a lot for crappie and bass. Crappie, usually use a bobber, mono, no big deal for the senisitivity issue, unkess i am using a little jig around cover, of course, then there is.
Now as for the bass fishing, completely different situation. Like a lot, I throw cranks and spinnerbaits with the rods I build for that purpose. Feeling a strike is not a sensitivity issue. The correct action and power of my is the more important issue.
I also fish a lot of lakes that are flooded timber lakes. This is almost all that I fish. With this presentation, the "feel" or sensitivity issue is crutial. I fish a lot of jigs, and plastic baits. When the jig, or plastic bait, fished with a lead weight, knocks or drags over a limb, or rock, the vibration is felt. The braids I use transmit the vibration to the guides and tip, then to the blank. This is very important, as exeryone knows. To me it is easier with braids, not so much with mono if at all. As a fish picks up the bait, the feel is very different, a lot of time, the feel just "goes away" for lack of better words. This is why I am always watching my line.
The point of my thread here is that for me, the combination of sight, or watching the line, along with what my fingers feel, work together. A fish may already have spit the bait out by the time I can react, but that is also a reflex issue. And sometimes we need to let the fish "take" the bait. Here again the feel or vibrations that come up the line to the rod are very important. I fish spinning reels a lot, flipping to the heavy cover. 1 finger is always on the line, and a finger and thumb on the rod blank.
Everything that has been done in the last few years in rod building seem to deal with lighter weight, and sensitivity. The split grips, nicro seats, and guides all help this.
Emory probably has it correct -tie the line directly to our hand. But I am not quite ready to go that far!
It it sure evident to see that the sensitivity, and feel, as well as to our responses to this is the same, dor all the different types of rods that are represented here. Action, power, sensitivity, all are so very important to us all. This is one of the biggest reasons we do our own builds!

Kyle Robinson

Kyle - and Emory... I c'rig a lot and as previously stated I use a 1oz. weight exclusively. I also use 50# braid where with mono I doubt I would exceed 20-25#'s. One of the reasons for the 50# is the way it lays on the reel spool and cast not merely the desire to have that pound test. But.... several... many... years ago I experimented using 30# braid and what happend durning that time was.... when, on the rare occasion I would backlash the reel. The 30# line would snap. Then while I was sitting down to re-tie the three knotts required in a c'rig I got to watch the remnants of the dearly departed c'rig hit the water on the horizon like shrapnel from a grenade. It would probably help if you understood I sling a c'rig like I'm trying the fish the headwaters from the dam.

This thread gave me the idea of using a heavier weight to induce more line tension. But 1oz. is pretty heavy and by going to a 1.5oz. it would very probably have an unacceptable negative impact on hooksets. Sooo... the other line of thought was to stay with the 1oz. weight and give the 30# braid another try.

Is there any way to effectively determine which would be the better route. On the one hand I've got 50# braid with additional weight allowing me to induce more tension on the line at a cost of more line mass. On the other hand I've got 30# braid with less mass but also less tension. Anyone have a clue as to which route would provide the greatest sensitivity? And if they do can they explain it in terms "bubba" can understand???? [hint... hint...Emory]

If you are asking for opinions?
I would suggest staying with the 50 lb braid regardless of which weight you went to.

If it true that you loose some sensitivity using 50 over 30 lb. braids, the minute amount lost is not worth the added difficulties you’ll likely have using the lighter braid.
The ratio of gained sensitivity of going from 15 mono to 50 lb braid as greater then the loss ratio of going from 30lb braid to 50 lb braid

As there is most definitely not an equitable loss of sensitivity back to what the mono was.
Unscientific example;
If 30 lb braid is 10 more sensitive then 15 lb mono, and 50 lb is only 9 times more sensitive then the increase is still worth the switch to braid, and in my opinion worth using the 50 lb. on a C-rig.

If you’re thinking about switch to lighter braid I would suggest 40 over 30. You’ll still save more setups, have less back lasses and get more hung up rigs back to the boat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2010 09:00AM by Steve Gardner.

Thanks Steve - yes I was looking for opinions and/or input. What's your opinion on the additional weight to achieve increased line tension? I know 1.5oz on a c'rig may seem like a silly idea but... At Bill's suggestion I have begun reading the M&M Volume series so I'd be hard pressed to believe you're not one to entertain "silly ideas"....

Please clarify the statement: "You'll save more setup...." I interpreted it to mean less broken line - correct?

This is probably a tad off topic but anyone that has even a passing interest in the micro guide concept would be well served by reading the post submitted containing the M&M's volume threads. A word of caution though - Bill told me it would keep me entertained for several hours, unless I was a speed reader. It may take a day or two due to time limitations on my part - but well worth it.

Yes I am prone to silly’s some of my best creations have come from doing so
And yes you are correct in your interpretation


Seeing that you are already able to keep tension on the line with your current choice, adding extra weight may or may not increase sensitivity.
But it may effect how your bait works and falls which could on some days improve things and on others lesion your catch rate, depending on the fishes activity levels.

I would suggest doing some experimenting maybe using two rods set up with the different weights switching back and forth to se if one out produces the other, and to see if you can feel the bottom structure better.
I would think that if you could feel the bottom structure better and get the same amount of bites. That going with the heavier weight would be a good choice. Since it would clue into were the bass are holding by being more aware of the structure they usually hold around.
But if you tend to get hung up in the structure more often with the heavier weight you might consider staying with your current choice.

Guess what I’m saying is to try it out and based on your results, do what works.

If people are going to carry things to the Nth degree, then here are some things to consider if you really want the most sensitivity. Never use a painted rod blank. If your chosen blank is painted, scrape the paint off. Paint increases the mass density of the rod and reduces sensitivity. Scrape the paint off your reel sideplates as well. This will reduce mass density. Consider drilling holes in your reel foot to further reduce mass density. Never use epoxy on your guide wraps. Use the smallest thread possible and coat with maybe two coats of something like Permagloss. Take care to constantly wipe or shake the water droplets off your rod. Any water on the rod increases the mass density. You may try waxing everything so that the rod easily sheds any water that gets on it.

I really doubt any of this will make a rod more sensitive to the extent that a human being could tell the difference, but if you really want the maximum amount of sensitivity then you had better start looking at all aspects where things like paint, water, guide wrap coatings and things of that nature are causing an increase in mass density.

And I am working on a Concept 2 rowing machine every day to reduce my own mass density. My large arms, moving through the air, provide too much wind resistance, and thus slow my cast.

As for braid, it too comes with a trade-off. I refer to mono as "shock absorber line." It stretches. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the situation. Braid has VERY limited stretch. That is good for increasing sensitivity, and good for reducing line belly due to its thinner diameter when compared to the same strength mono. It's a not so good thing when someone over-tightens the reel's drag. The margin for user error is much smaller.

Line stretch is also magnified when you have a lot of line out. I have seen mono reeled in under tension (stretched), and when it attempts to return to it's normal size, warp the spool. This happened to me on a 130 lb white marlin...I was a saltwater neophyte, and had about 150 yards of line out (12 lb mono) when the fish took my trolled eel. I have often wondered how many yards of line were "added" during that fight due to stretch alone. I am reasonably sure that if I was fishing with braided dacron the line would have simply snapped.

These days mono is reserved for my spinning reels. Everything else gets braid.

Gary I am full agreement with your statements and have no experice to address or otherwise comment on white marin fishing line/rod requirement(s). But in bass fishing situations where the angler has made the decision to transition from mono to braid he needs to understand that the inherent differences in the physical properties between braid and mono will more than likely require a reconsideration of the rod it's self to fully utilize the positive benefits of braid while eliminating or at least reucing the negative impact those benefits. You can read that to suggest a tad faster tip with a tad more forgiving blank where the power is a bit further down the blank.

Richard;
On rods were sensitivity is an issue;
I often remove the paint, (sometimes not on blanks were it will effect warranty and almost always on blanks with out a warranty). Beside the mass density of the paint, it also contains a certain amount rubberizing agent that allows it to stretch and flex with the blank.
That component in itself deadens some for the vibrations traveling through the blank.

On spinning rods; I eliminate the reel seat altogether by using graphite tubing instead of cork and wrapping the reel directly to the handle using size “A” threads. Some times also eliminating all arbors to further reduce mass.

Using Permagloss, micro guides, and no decorations.
On casting rods; using unpainted and split seats:

Don’t worry about water; it comes off on the cast.

While anyone of these things might not make a difference in the angler’s ability to feel a difference, collectively they make a big differencedifference in rod sensitivity and bite detection .