I'm doing some experimenting with passing some larger knots, and while I've worked with smaller ones before, mostly with fly tackle, these larger connections are something that's new to me.

While I know that the goal is to use a guide size that passes the knot "comfortably," I'm waffling a bit about how big to go. One the one hand, I'm afraid that my experiments will fail when a knot has to pass through the guides under great stress, like when a big fish is taking line quickly; on the other hand, I don't want to use guides too big, because doing so will add a bunch of unnecessary weight to the tip of the rod.

Is there a formula that anyone out there uses to determine the correct guide size for passing knots? Is a ring with twice the diameter of your largest knot too small? Too large? Does it depend on the kind of knot? Does it depend on the kind of fishing?

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Cast it. If the lure or bait "hangs" on the way out and creates a sudden bounce in the rod, the guides are too small.

At a size that is sufficient, you may still hear or even slightly feel the bump of the knot passing on the way out. But that's okay, as long as the line or knot doesn't hang or cause a shock or bounce in the rod.

Generally, guides that are large enough to pass such a knot on a cast will easily allow the same knot to pass under the run of a fish.

..............

The biggest test I've found when fly fishing is with the multi-tip lines or a shooting head system with a loop splice. I've found #6 (with inserts) to be a little too tight for these, but #7's seem to work fine. I also find an extra large loop on the tip also helps.

Terry

One of the reasons I asked, Tom, is because this is not a casting rod. It's a trolling rod. And I've been pulling out my hair trying to replicate a fish peeling drag. And I couldn't, at least not in my shop.

But I like the idea of casting it. Just because the rod will not be used for casting doesn't mean that I can't test-cast it, right? Sure, I'm not going to win any distance contests, but I that really doesn't matter -- it will ba a good way of replicating the speed of a fish peeling line off the spool. Thanks for the suggestion -- I appreciate it.

Chris, if you let us know what line and knots we might be able to help. The brand/model of guides would have a bearing as well. The more info you provide the better.

THe knot you tie makes a difference as well. The biggest knot is the uni Uni, which is also the most common for the fishing I do. The time that the knot will hang up most is when teh fish is straight down under the boat. in general, I use size 10's for braid 65# and Mono 50# or less, and 12 for anything larger than that. This is for boat fishing, not trolling or surf casting.

I'm similar to billy, and use nothing under a 10 for running guides including on trolling rods. The main reason is the unknown factor. I can say all I want to that I'm not going to pass any knots, but the reality of that never works. If you encounter a situation where splicing two lines on the fly needs to happen (and it does sometimes) I want to know that the guides will be able to pass that connection.

What type of trolling are you doing also, that will make a big difference in what lines/knots you are using.

This is a goofball setup: it's joining 40 lb. monel trolling wire to a 60 lb. fluoro leader.

I've been experimenting a bit, and the connection that I like the most, for strength purposes, is a haywire twist in the wire, and then an Albright knot with a lock tied through the loop made by the Haywire twist. It's evidently a very strong knot, and my tests have so far confirmed this. But there's only one problem: the resulting connection is pretty big and bulky.

I'm going to try casting, as I'm sure it will work. I'll post results here if I remember. I don't think I'll need to go any bigger than a 12, but we'll see.

Thanks, guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2009 03:31PM by Chris Garrity.

I build primarily Great Lakes Trolling rods. Lines like Leadcore use albrights, blood knots, and variations of both to join lines and leaders of different diameters. Wirelines and coppers have their own terminal issues similiar to knots. Keep in mind that the diameter of the guide ring isn't all there is to consider. When a knot or connection is under load, and your taking line back in, the knot or connection simply stubs in the load bearing guide ring surface. It isn't so much a diameter of the ring issue as simply trying to pull a blunt edge connection over a fulcrum. As the lines wear and begin to frey and get ugly, this becomes even more of an issue. This is only relevant to reeling in line under load, and wouldn't apply to casting with little or no load. Size may have an advantage there. I have seen little difference in size 8's vs. 12's or larger in their ability to pass connections during battle. But, having said that, sometimes the customer will not be convinced of this concept and you end up using oversized guides for thier piece of mind. I use the smallest roller guides available for wireline rods. I have experimented with the effect of knots and splices passing over them. You barely notice the splices passing over/through the rollers. The ID opening for the line to pass through the roller is only 6mm. It all comes down to the guides ability to dampen the blunt collision the knot or connection makes as it enters the guide's load bearing surface under tension.

You can test this concept by simply building a simple fixture to hold a rod/reel. Attach your test rod/reel to the others line. Set the jigged rod for the amount of drag you wish to fight/test and walla, simulated drag. You can also simulate different angles and such with this setup. You will see little effect of guide ring dia. vs. the knots or connections stubbing the guides as they pass. Guide rings with larger radius bearing surfaces tend to slip the connections less noticable as you would expect. Obviously, starting with a guide size that is sufficient to pass the connections in the first place is essential. I have found that size 8's will adequately pass leadcore, and wireline connections with ease.

Think of it usiing the Billy 40 common sense methods. Weigh the pros and cons.
What is teh effect of using guides bigger than you need on this rod?
What advantage are you gaining by using smaller guides?

Answer those 2 questions, and I think youll have the answer you are looking for.

Tony,
I have had several customers who have brought me their trolling rods for modifications.
Primarily, they have been asking me to change their ringed tip to a roller tip. Then, leave the rest of the guides alone.
As you pointed out, when retrieving the line under load, the big push comes when the splice and bulk end comes up against the unyielding ring in the tip of the rod. By making the tip a roller tip, the issue is removed. Generally speaking, the force on the rest of the guides is much less than a fully flexed trolling rod under a heavy fish load.

Take care
Roger

Absolutely. Even the style guides can make a huge difference. A zirconia ringed guide is generally much thinner and tighter radius, vs. the same size guide in Hardloy or AO. With trolling rods, weight and casting are very seldom critical issues, so choosing a larger ringed guide will not be a deal breaker. What is funny is that several retail rods designed and intended for wire line and leadcore sport very fine, large ringed wire ring guides. Talk about stubbing a knot!

I build many lake rods the use 30-40mono, and most use slip-knots on the line to control the depth of the bait using slip-floats. Myself included, and I found the 8's were to small and caused a small bounce in the rod every now and then as Tom spoke of.

went to 10's no problem.