I know spey rod designations of 8/9 for example do not correlate directly to a single handed 8 or nine weight rod due to the skagit heads and spey lines. Question is....what spey rod would one want to build for inland trout? The 6wt spey blanks previously mentioned? Or...say a 3/4wt spey blank, or a 4/5?

As mentioned by Mr. Hartlage in a previous thread....he plans to build a 6wt spey for steelhead and sea trout! I don't meed that kind of rod for my NE Arizona lakes and streams. But I still want to build a trout spey rod. What blank does one look for?

I would like to build a long spey rod for inland trout fishing...but not be over rodded.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2009 03:35PM by Jim Williams.

Never heard of a spey rod lighter than 6wt. Why would you need a spey for small trout?

Two-handers for trout are fantastic. You get the joy of casting a two-hander (or the necessity if you have shoulder problems). There is a lot of trout "swinging water" out there that could be much more efficiently fished with a two-hander. With a shooting head setup, you can also fish stillwater (without a boat) with more efficiency than with singlehander. A good trout spey will let you fish lighter tippet for the more selective trout.

A 6wt spey will probably way outgun most of the trout.
The selection of blanks is somewhat limited, for now, but a few I know of:

Bob Meiser has a few starting at 3/4. I built on his older 12'6" 3/4/5 a few years ago and it performs great - can fish down to 6X tippet.
Batson Forecast - 11'6" 6/7 would be cheaper, and is a nice little rod, but would be more comparable to fishing a 8 weight single hander.
Batson Rainshadow 12'6" 6wt - Exists - I've never handled the rod at all. Also would likely feel more like an 8 weight.
Beulah platinum spey - 11'7" 5wt: Good reputation - still might be heavier than you are looking for.

There are now a couple of switch rod blanks (like those from Batson) that are in the 5wt range. These might work out for you, but are not a classic double hander.

As far as I know (which isn't saying much) - the Meiser blanks are still the only true trout spey's available as blanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2009 06:51PM by Joe Spencer.

Jim,

I have to ask, besides the inland lakes, what size are the rivers that you will be fishing trout for? If they are actual streams and creeks, then a spey rod is not the tool to pick out of the tool box. If they are small creeks, you could do the same type of swinging and casting with a single handed rod than a spey. Alos, you don't have to have a spey rod to spey cast...

I also agree with Joe in many of his comments...

Just some food for thought...

Paul

Since when does one have to NEED something to buy it? Never heard of less than 6wt spey? I have been advised elsewhere on this site to purchase the Bob Meiser 12'-6" 3/4/5 spey rod. I cannot afford to do that or I would. (correction...I remember now...it was on the Spey Clave website) However I just looked at his site and did not see a 3/4/5. Probably the one that I THINK I saw that said 3/4. Anywhooo....if there are no spey rods less than 6wt then I have found a new market to get rich. I am building a 10' 3wt with a 1' extension with 24" of slip ring cork grip. But it is just a blank I have on hand. Not really built to be a "spey" rod. I have a 10'-6" 4wt blank and a 10' 6" 5 wt blank and I have a 13' blank...no desigination.

Who said anything about small trout? I guess you guys might consider our trout small compared to steelheads. But if I knew how to post pictures here I can show you some hogs caught here. My favorite little stream....longest I know of 33". Gene Maronde's wife got a 32". Fran got a 26' and I know of a guide got a 27.5" rainbow. No pics of those. But I have some pics of some toads me, my son, and friends have caught. Fortunately my son had a camera as I don't carry one. I took my two pooches to the creek to get exercise just two days ago and two fellows were leaving. I asked if they had any luck and they said they had a blast. They swore one of them got a 24" Apache trout. Those fishies on a proper spey rod would be a blast. But I don't really know what blank to buy and build on. Perhaps I will just take what I have and build them into spey rods just for fun. Oh...I wouldn't fish the spey on my stream. I fish it with an 11' 6wt with a very forgiving tip. I can really cover a lot of stream from standing in one spot.....and I can really reach out to some far seams and get a great drift. I want to spey fish the lakes. May not make sense to anybody...but I want to because I think it would be fun to learn how to spey cast. Then....I will also be training myself for my goal.....a season of fishing the Pacific Northwest. I should have the rods, know how to cast....and will just have to learn how to fish for the species that are up there. But I am looking forward to that trip.

Jim

Spence, thanks for the info....and verifying there is a 3/4/5 wt spey rod out there. As I said Joe....I was advised I think here....no I think it was on Spey Claves to purchase the Bob Meiser 3/4/5 wt spey rod as it is a great trout spey. But I don't have that kind of mooolah.

Thanks for the comments.

I did not mean to offend anyone. Just curious when someone says 3/4wt, where the spey rod would fit as these lighter rods are usually used on smaller waters and not for large trout.

As you point out Jim you use a heavier rod (6wt) for the nice size trout you mention. Learning to spey cast is fun, and certainly helps one to cover more water. Here in the west we do use it mostly on large rivers for Steelhead and Salmon.

Phil,
Glad you made the above post. I was indeed offended as I saw not only no help for me and my question...I saw no benefit to me at all about answering my question. And so I was wondering why you even bothered to post? In fact I saw absolutely not even any INTENT t be helpful!

But your last post took all the mad clear out of me.

I fish my stream with lot's of other rods. And smaller rods. But the 11' one just fishes the stream so well. I know...or at least I have the opinion...that one does not need a 6 wt...or even a 5 wt for my stream. In fact a 3wt probably perfect. I haven't tried a 3wt on the stream yet. I just got around to learning that you don't have to have a 5 or 6 wt rod to land trout.

I purchased a 15' 10/11 wt spey rod from Albright because marked down to $129....and now the darned thing is $99. But I want a wee trout spey rod...but LONG. I like the 15' of my rod. I only cast it with a friends skagit head line because I had no line that would cast on it. There is also absolutely no one in my town interested in it but me. So I am all alone on this one. But I enjoyed the movements of spey casting with my big big rod. Now I want one for trout. I can't wait to fish my lakes with a two hander.....from shore or boat. I have caught nice fighting fish from Becker lake and from Christmas Tree lake from shore. I am going to have a lot of fun with it I think.

I have no rivers to fish it it. And I am certainly not going to fish my streams with it. But I still want to learn it and do it. I just know the designations as Joe said earlier......a 6wt designation for a spey rod would be over rodding for my trout. The AFTMA line ratings and the Speys/Skagits/Scandi" do not relate linear. Therefore the question......how to get a proper spey rod for trout?

When my wife passed. 38 days before our 38th year together I didin't do well. A four year battle of cancer and the last year she could not come up to this elevation so I lived alone and drove a lot! She did not want me to rent the house out with her 38 years of art work, and collections of her interest. Anyway I went away and sat on a lake and howled at the moon the rest of the year. Did not realize it at the time....but I would access the internet via a laptop....and buy rods, reels, and lines....as was just getting into fly casting when she became ill. I did not realize it at the time, but I now think it was a way of coping. So I purchased a kazillion rods and reels and such. And for the fishing I do here I did not need to make a single new purchase! I have every rod from 1wt thru 10wt...and multiple's of 3-4-5-6's. Different lengths and actions. A billion reels and I have a floating, sink tip, int sink, and full sink for every line wt from 3-10 inclusive and the reels to go with them. And I even have some 11 wt lines. Doesn't mean to say I don't enjoy Rod Maker magazine....or building rods....and of course this site is awesome. I need to throw away every thing I bought and start over!

I don't know why I bore you with all of this. I guess to say I have tons of rods and reels. I just want to learn to spey cast...and make a trip to the beautiful PNW and fish for those fish I have never seen....steelhead, salmon, maybe even ocean fly fishing.

Sorry to bore you all with length of msg.

Oh by the way....I have searched....and have not found even ONE book on how to "build' a spey rod. I think there is a market out there for somebody!

I don't even think they are covered in Rod Maker magazine. If they are...I have missed it then.

Honest thanks for the help.


Jim

Jim, I do not want this thread to become personal, but I understand your points, and really respect what you have gone through. One thing does bother me a little and that is if I understand your latest post, is that you are thinking about fishing for substantial size trout with a light rod (3/4wt). In my opinion this is not only not sporting but is very injurious to the fish. Fighting them too long exhausts them and builds up lactic acids that may kill them even after they are released. Current thought is that one should get the fish to net as fast as possible to avoid the effects wearing the fish out and making recovery doubtful. I fish light rods a great deal, but only where I know I am going to be fishing for smaller trout that are matched better to the size of the rod. I even fish a 6'6" 2wt in our small Sierra streams and have a ball doing it, but I would never want to have a 15-16" fish on it unless I knew I could get it to net very quickly.

I realize I am not being much help to your original post, and I really can't offer any as I only fish spey in the heavier weights for larger fish. But keep with it, and I think you will love mastering spey casting as it is somewhat of an art-form.

To see what I'm up to, check out my web site at: www.phlyphish.com

Jim - Keep the faith - someone will come along with a value-level trout spey soon. In the meantime, build in some extensions to those 10' + blanks you have, and then start reading on Speypages about building your own lines. You think you're obsessed now?!

Phil - the 3/4 weight speys are much more powerful than a 3/4 weight single hander. They are easily good up to 10 pound fish - and more if you have good light-line fighting skills.

Since you mentioned ethical fishing - I personally prefer fishing lighter gear for trout to protect the weak link in the setup - the tippet. I can apply just as much pressure to the fish with a 2wt as with a 5wt, but more comes from me and less from the rod. With a lighter rod, we're less likely to break a fish off due to sudden runs, because you have a more efficient shock absorber. With a little practice, I would say that more sustained pressure could be applied (and fish landed just as quickly) with a lighter rod once we learn what our tackle can do. One of the Howard Films Tarpon DVD's had me hooking my rods and line up to a bucket of sand to see when it would break, and it changed how I play fish.

Now, I wouldn't want to spend all day trying to catch 4 pound trout on my 2 weight rod, but I'm not afraid of the odd fish.

If I may add this into the equation...

Fighting a 30" rainbow in a lake is one thing and can be done with fly rods less than 5 weights (Even though I don't condone it and I didn't encourage it during my flyfishing schools.), but put the same 30" fish in a river, where the depth and velocity of the current are against you, and that same 30" fish is gonna smoke you with a 5 weight!!! Hands down, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Plus, trying to land the fish is gonna tax-out the fish near exhaustion. I have seen it many time...I live in the land of the monster rainbows.

JIM:

Please post the pics of those fish that are said to be over 30", I would love to see them-I wish I could talk ya through it, but can't. Also, you may want to consider learning how to spey cast in a river all well as a lake. Learning in a river will add HUGE benefits due to the real world current not found in a lake. ALso, learning on a river will also allow you to develop skills in the various types of casts used-these are hard to do on a pond or lake.

Paul

Phil, appreciate your input...but I know all the things you said already. And Joe just said everything I was going to say!
I have no intention of fishing for big trout with a three weight fly rod. As Joe said...and I said earlier...."weight" rating of single hand rods and spey's to not relate evenly. Oh, just remember you said you fish spey so you know this already. That is my whole point. A 6wt rated spey rod would be over rodding here for trout. And that is why I asked what blank I could build a inland trout spey rod on.

About three weeks ago I went to my stream....and people were fly fishing....and I spent most of my time trying to revive the fish that had been caught and released. Obviously not C&R's properly.

I am also with Joe on the weak link. The weakest link is the tippet....whether you are fishing a 6wt rod or a 3wt rod, with the same tippet it is going to break at the break point...even if you were using a coat hanger. So as soon as you hit the break point it breaks, regardless of which rod it is on. In fact I will NOT break the tippet as often with a three wt as one will with a more powerful 6wt rod. And...I contend I can land ANY trout on a 3wt as fast as you can on a 6wt...given the same tippet. Now...a 3.5lb tippet? Yes...people that fish with a 6wt rod STILL use a tippet that will break....or is at least rated 3.5lbs! So what's the difference? You cannot put any more presure on the fish with a 6wt rod and a 3 pound tippet than I can with a 3wt rod and a 3lb tippet or it will break.

But rest assured I have no intention of over playing trout so they will not survive. In fact Becker lake is"open year round." G&F is trying to restore it to the primo trout lake it once was. I actually recommend they just 'close the lake" in late June, July, and early August. The water is up to 74 degrees I have seen and who knows if more. Oxygen content low. The fish are already stressed with their summer environment and then they let people catch and release them! Those fish have a far less chance of survival than the cold stream quick catch and release with moving water. Point being I try hard not to stress fish and I release them. And if they get off before I land them fine, I already have succeeded. I FOOLED them into eating my phony fly. It doesn't matter to me if I land them, if they get off 3' from shore....or 10' from shore. I am a happy fisherman.

Anyway....I have about 5 blanks I can play with building into speys. Joe....I am already building a 10' single hand rod with a 12" slip ring cork grip...that by removing the small fighting butt....will accept a 12" cork extension and I can slide the reel down...or change the reel and put on a skagit head....and spey cast with it. It will go boaf ways! In fact I am going to even have an 8" slip ring grip that will slip on and off the 5' tip section...for practice casting...or if I get into tight quarters and want to fish as a 5' rod. Can also attach an open faced spinning reel and spin fish....or fly fish with a spinning reel.....and on and on and on. Just an experiment. Depending on how it works out...I have a 10-6" 4wt blank, which might get the same extension....a 10'-6" 5wt...blank....and a 13" blank no designation. So I have lot's to experiment with. I am usually outside the box on everything. One of my bad faults I guess.

Sorry for the long post....it was kind of a way of explaining who I am, and how I got that way...and why I stupidly bought all those rods and reels before I knew but a tip of the ice berg in this sport. Lame excuse but the only one I have.

Thanks Phil and Joe.

Jim

What, no thanks for me? Haha.

Paul,

Yup. Thanks to you as well. What you DO NOT know is I never saw your post until this very moment. It must have been coming in while I was typing that long winded last post of mine....and posted....probably while I was typing. I hit the "Post Message" and clicked off...went outside to try to protect firewood I have gathered from the storms that came in. I don't have my wood stove installed yet...but trying to keep the wood dry. It was so beautiful her the last few days I didn't even think of covering my firewood....which I did earlier in the year...but the weather beat the tarps up and rotted the. So on very short notice, I woke up to sudden thought of covering my wood. I got a lot done yesterday but woke up this am with about a 1/2" of snow. It quickly melted away...so I have been trying to get more wood protected before more rain or snow comes.

Anyway.....I never ever saw your post till moments ago. And I do like your information. I have no rivers to practice in. Lakes only....unless I drive 6.5 hours to the San Juan. That gets spendy. You done get back home the same night and need an out of state license.

I hope to get some learning on rivers someday. But doesn't look like I will till I make my first voyage to the Pacific Northwest. But then...that's the fun of it all.

Paul, thanks for bringing the thread back to spey rods and what they are for. It got side tracked.

I don't have any pics of the 30" ones. I do have some pics of some pretty big ones....won't compare to steelies....but I don't know their weight nor length. C&R and I don't carry a camera or tape measure. The few pics I have were taken by others. Ken Mc Gowan been there for about 15 years. In fact his name is brought up in Charles Meck and John Rohmer's book....fishing streams of AZ. Ken stated the biggest one he knew of was 33". Gene started our fly club about 15 years ago. I don't know when it was done because it was before I moved here. The creek at one time was a pet project of our fly club...and Gene got the 3 upper pools dredged out. Couple of years later his wife hooked into the 32" one. Gene totally forgot in his excitement and went into the stream to net him.....WRONG...right where it had been dredged out. Down he went...all is well but it is a funny story. Fran Stier here caught a 26" on an Elk Hair Caddis. Paul Carlson, a guide from Peoria, AZ caught a 27.5 inch rainbow on a blood red semi seal leech. I have no pictures of any of those. I have two pics my friend took...well three. One of me, one of a fellow up from Phx to fish....and my friend Ken himself with the real toad. My son took pics of Captain Bill with his big fish, and of me with mine, and of another fellow and then I used his camera to get his shot with one. So...I have some pics but not of the bigger ones. I will try to figure out how to post pics and bore you to death. I have a pic of my son with about a 13" Native Apache trout....which I can include for comparison's sake.

Thanks for your words Paul. I understand them and appreciate them. I am just a rookie....been around posting a long time but have read more than actual fishing time on the water. That practical experience is what I am lacking. Again that is the fun of it. But I am always the one who is trying something new or different. It is just my nature. Insatiable curiosity, untrainable, but an incurable optimist.

Jim

Paul - I've seen many anglers play a fish to exhaustion because they were afraid to use enough force to land it quickly. It invariably is a lack of familiarity with the capabilities of our equipment.

Wish I could find some way to integrate a torque wrench into my fishing grips! That should help in the landing times!

Oh no problem Jim, I was trying to get some razz out of ya. I'm glad my .02 provided you some insight. Also, let me extend an invitation to you if you ever come to Alaska, I will guide you in the right direction and offer some guidance for ya...

And if lakes are all that you have, that is ok as well as you know...Better to have have something than nothing at all. Also, I find it exciting to do something different as you are doing in your town; like using small spey rods. I too was in your shoes about 6 years ago when I started float fishing with a center pin reel here in AK. I was the only cat in town and the state doing it for the most part....Now, my big fat mouth has blown it up!

Anyway, good wishes to you and your exciting endevors. And if you ever come to the Greatland, drope me an email!!!

Paul

Thanks Paul and thanks for the invite.

I usually get rebuffed on my ideas and I just let it ride and do what I want anyway. Our fly club has an outing once a month on some lake and the ALL use some type of inflatable. Either a float tube, pontoon float tube, or pontoon boat. I had an 8' Water Skeeter as well as pontoon float tubes. I found it so inefficient to have to put on my stocking feet chest waders, wader belt, booties to protect the stocking feet, and flippers, and walk backwards into the lake. Twelve noon is always our potluck. So you come in, beach your craft, remove the danged flippers and have lunch. Now it is back to the inflatable, re-install the flippers, get rod and gear going and back into the lake. And then the wind blows you to the other side of the lake and it's all you can do to struggle to get back...not fishing...trying to out do the wind. Sooooo I bought a used 8' foam filled boat. Fits inside my pick up bed with camper door shut. No dust, rain...or dust and then rain in my boat on way to a lake down a dirt road. I cut the ends off a dead trolling motor shaft and mounted an anchor....and attached a rope ratchet pully. I have one on front and one on back. I can pull up anchor and just pull the rope...when I let go it latches. So each anchor raised easily. To anchor I push the ratchet pully and the anchors drop. I turn loose and they are latched. I turned the head around on my trolling motor so it mounts on front and goes forward....in forward gears. Made extensions to reach my seat and control the motor. I don't fight the wind anymore, just turn on my motor. I don't wear chest waders....I wear hip waders. I put them on before I leave the house. Wear my river shoes over the stocking foot waders. Never take them off. End of day I drive home in same garb I went in. No changing clothes for lunch. I arrive, back my truck to the water, drop the tailgate and slide the boat into the water and throw an anchor on the ground....all fishing gear already in boat! Go park truck....pull up anchor, walk out into the water knee deep and get in boat and shove off and I am fishing! I have to tell you S W E E T. I was told won't work. Now two of the fly club members who have lived up here all their life have switched to 8' boats like me. One guy , Bill, actually has purchased an 8' and a 10'. He has purchased a ten foot aluminum boat , and a Harbor Freight trailer and modified it to be his boat trailer. So much for it won't work huh? I go eat lunch. I go step in my boat and shove off and I am fishing before they can even be backing up the the water in their flippers! <grin>

When I leave, I back truck up to lake, put front of boat up on tailgate, pick up back end and slide it into truck, close camper shell door, get in truck and drive off....while they are still fooling with all their inflatable stuff.


I tell my sons you can always tell who the pioneers are. They are the ones with all the arrows sticking out of their backs!

Sorry once again for length of msg. Just an example how sometimes stepping outside of the box sometimes works quite well.

Jim

Second try at posting pics per request. The other day I tried and a link was locked up in my "copy/paste/ feature. I was unable to copy anything new into the right click copy feature. I thought I was posting pics and looked at the five I had done and they were all the same....and not a pic but a link I sent to someone else. I think it is clear now. So trying again.

Well, will try some more. I know I am being put to the test here. Pls show pics of 30" trout?...yeah...prove it. Well, I cannot. Those are hearsay. But the man who told me the biggest is Ken McGowan; his name is mentioned in the book written by Charles Meck and John Rohmer and I think it was titled "Fishing Trout Streams of Arizona". You can go to John's fly shop website....and order the book. Not that it means anything to you guys. But Ken is a reliable source as he has been there at the Silver Creek Hatchery for 15 years and just this year I think is getting promoted to take Mark's place....who took the managers job at Tonto Basin. This time I think Ken will be promoted into Mark's spot. Ken just casually commented one day the biggest one so far was 33". Same story with the 32" . Then fly club founder 12 years ago and president....about 4 yers ago his wife got a 32". Again hearsay but with other club members around to verify his story it seems to be true. The 26" and 27.5" are even more credible. Our fly club had an outing at Silver Creek. I was somewhere else on the creek. However at lunch many verified Fran caught a 26" bow.. On another day, I was n the parking lot when my doctor, Dr. Lee Reeck walked by and said he just helped a fellow land a big one upstream. I said how long and he said over 2'. Dr. Reeck is considered the stream guru up here. He does not fish lakes. Anyway...later a fellow named Chris Carlson came in. I said are you the one that got the big one upstream? He said yes, and he and the doctor had marked a spot on his rod. He got a tape out of his pickup up and we measured to the mark 27.5". I neither carry a camera or tape. But thinking about starting to. Anyway these fish I have no idea how long. Mark said they averaged 10 pounds. Meaning some were 12-14 pounds and some were under 10. Other people catch fish up here. This just me and my friends.

Try to post multiple pics. See if I get it right again.....or goof it up. Well the previous pic is now hung up in my copy/paste file and I cannot post a different pic. Nor do I know how to delete this post. I hate to just edit it and leave it empty.

Sorry guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2009 04:24AM by Jim Williams.

Try again.
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A typical Native Apache thrown in for comparison. That about 13". Bearded one is I.

I live in what is called the White Mountains of Arizona. So when you see a post about the White Mountains it is about the area around Show Low,
AZ.

Now if you go to azflyandtie.com and click on General Discussion and scroll down to the post "Browns in the Whites" you will see some nice browns. Those browns were caught I just a couple of weeks ago over the Thanksgiving holiday week end. The access to that lake is now closed do to snow. Probably doesn't matter because probably frozen over anyway.

There is another even bigger brown posted some where but I haven't found it yet today.

Jim