Over the last several years, I hear comments how important the weight of the finished rod, is to the overall sensitivity and fishability of a particular rod.

Although I agree in principle, I wonder if there is too much emphasis on this issue.

I hear folks talking about saving micro grams, grams, an oz, a 1/4 oz etc.

After the rod is finished, the user of the rod, then attaches a reel that weighs 5-20 ozs.

Thus, a rod / reel setup might come out weighing much much more than what folks think about when they speak of finished rods weighing 2-3 ozs.

Yes, I do like to minimize tip weight because I think that on virtually any rod, a rod will cast and fish better with a lighter tip.

But, I see and hear an emphasis on saving micro grams of weight on a reel seat, rod butt or other weight of some sort in the area of the reel and or reel seat.

I really wonder how significant this slight amount of weight savings is in the overall concept of having a good fishing rig.


For example, it seems to me that it is much much more important to have a rod and reel setup that feels good in your hand, as opposed to a rig that is uncomfortable, but is a fraction of an oz lighter.

Also, it seems to me that it is very important to have a rod / reel setup that is user friendly. I wonder with todays emphasis on very very small guides - is this really in the best interest of making a rig - user friendly?

As I go to the river or lake and observe fisherfolks with a boat full of rods and reel setup, it is interesting to observe on which rod or rods that they will pick out of the batch of rods to use for a minute, hour or day of fishing.

Also, in conversations with fisherfolks it is interesting to find that many folks will try out new rigs from time to time. Either they will purchase, borrow, or simply use another persons rod that happens to be in the boat. Then, come the following week, this new rig - with the latest and greatest bells and whistles on the rod - is sitting in the corner gathering dust. The fisherfolks are back to using their rod - reel that they used last year, or 10 years ago, simply because they are comfortable with the rig and it WORKS.

Sometimes we as builders and designers - change something for the sake of change. I wonder if when we make changes, are we making changes that are in the best interest of the user? i.e. the fisherfolks who are the intended final user of the rig. Are we giving them a rig that can and WILL be used for a hard working tool to be used for hour after hour on a day on a body of water - chasing those elusive things we commonly refer to as fish.

I would just appreciate any comments about changes that we have seen in the last few years that seem - in your opinion - to really help (and are commonly embraced as being a better idea) the fisherfolks enjoy and become more productive.
Contrast this with recent ideas, that seem to be a good idea, but find an overwelming lack of interest - with long term use of this particular idea.

Take care
Roger

I don't know Roger. You are currently working on "my" fly rod for me....and it definitely is not the norm. What do YOU think about IT? Well, on second thought, it is just not the norm. Not about new products, material, etc.....so I guess it does not apply here.

I am not very knowledgeable to give you a good debate on this subject. I know I do not like snake guides, single foot guides for me. I do not like the single foot guide wrapped around to itself to become the foot....and the guide is open all the way down to the rod. I like single foot guides that stand up.....have a complete ring that stands off the rod a bit. I also think ceramic guides, as well as others have been a big improvement in guides. Especially in the area of durability.

I am not too sure I should be posting....due to lack of brain power. I do know that I like my rods a certain way....as you may have discovered by now.....but that is just what a custom rod is. As far as the new stuff goes....I take it with a grain of salt......and build the rod the way I want it anyway. I just build fishing poles. Example, I like my single handed rods with the first stripper 14" from the grip. That is probably far too close for most....but works for me. But that is a feature of "custom building". Not about anything new in technique or material.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2009 07:34PM by Jim Williams.

Generally, a lighter overall set-up will feel better in the hand. Why not save weight if you can do it without sacrificing the function of the rod?

As far as weight savings go, you have to start somewhere. Saving 1/4 ounce of weight from the total of a freshwater fly rod, or a similar casting or spinning rod is going to be something you can notice in the hand. Saving 1/4 ounce on a 12 foot surf rod may not be. It comes down to the percentage of overall weight reduction.

The rods I build these days are a little lighter than those I built 20 years ago, and I greatly prefer how they feel and fish.

...............

an average joes opinion
when the bite is on, i notice a set ups limitations. butt end of rod hitting my forearm, can't reach the fish, not enough backbone to move fish.
for some species, sensitivity is not as important. how could you not feel a big snook hit your rig? sight fishing reds and they blow up on your bait.
but having only recently pulled off a truely sensitive rig, it's gonna be hard to go back. when you do need to feel that mangro snapper or black drum, you can. but before i knew, i made due with what i had and didn't really know the difference. my brother in law will blow $1000 on a bow but scoffs at my fishin rods, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. it's kinda like believing in your favorite lure. if you don't believe in it and fish it, your not gonna catch anything on it.

to me its balance, i fish with a fly rod and spinning reel , the reel aft of my hand acts as a counter balance to the rod length .

if its balanced right there is no repetitive stress to my wrist, where as a standard spinning rod/reel just kills my arm, wrist, hand and a bait caster is totally out of the question.

but some of these super sticks that they have on the market now days are as light as a feather.

but here again its just my opinion......

"Sometimes we as builders and designers - change something for the sake of change."

For my own rods I will change things for the sake of change. Some things work, some don't. I keep using what works for me and each rod has some improvement over the last or it gets re-built. I re-build a lot of my rods. The builder is the test bed for new ideas like foam core grips, spiral wraps, guide sizes heights and position, ultra light tip tops, overall weight reduction, balancing weights, and so on. I don't think there's a professional builder on this board that would recommend something new and untested to a client that just wants a fishing tool.

I have a little different perspective from Roger's. I've got a 7' medium heavy that weighs under 3 ozs and an 8' crankbait rod the only weighs 3.3 ozs. I don't have to sell these rods. They sell themselves. I just let guys fish with them and they want them. I dropped off one of each to a guy on Wednesday. He had tried the pair when fishing with one of his buddies that is also a customer of mine. He called me the next to order his and said he wanted one of each just like his buddy. He called me back on Thursday after getting off the water thanking me for the rods saying he had never fished with such light and sensitive rods. He's got a boat load of GLX and Legend Elite rods, so he's not buying the cheap stuff.

I'm not sure what others are doing to save weight, but I've never had anyone complain that the rods weren't "comfortable". I was having a conversation with a BASS Elite angler about weight. He said a 1/2 oz or a 1/4 oz may not sound like much, but when you're making 2000 cast a day, it really adds up.

One thing that (I think) has been slow to catch on down here with the salt water crowd is braided line. Many boats won't allow it and many are turned off by the price. Those that I know that are fishing it are simply over-lining what they have and aren't taking full advantage (i.e. thier rods/reels can't effectivily fish the line class they now have).

So with braid, and the new small two speed reels that can fish a ton of drag, the game has changed. Throw in materials like graphite and carbon fiber and the reel is much smaller and lighter for a given line class now. Naturally one would want a decrease in the weight of the blank for a balanced outfit. When you factor in the lack of stretch it is hard to get the weight down enough and still make things rugged.

It would seem the trend is towards a slower, more parabolic action and smaller diameter thicker walled blanks. I find it hard not to end up with a tip heavy rod nowadays. But then I'm old school and demand that the line be the weak link and break before the rod will. I don't envy you guys building bass rods that are going to be fished with lines testing twice (or more) than what the blanks can deadlift.

How about 2,000 pitches in a morning with a 1 1/2 oz Jig N Creature on a seven foot six inch t eight foot rod whose primary purpose is instaneous fish extraction!

Robert I hate to tell you this during this time of the year but all the funny talking Cajuns over here with the fast boats are getting equipped to make visits to your Hawg Waters starting in mid December! Don't waste your time this year crying about how bad the fishing is - just will not fly! I wish I had the exclusive on launch fees at Falcon and Amistad - they are afraid to cross over and head to Sweet -

Please take a look a the Official Passport For Cajuns at the Border Crossing

This one is done in Electric Decal on all rods crossing the Sabine!

[www.rodbuilding.org]

jpeg if you want to join us at the border: [www.rodbuilding.org]

Gon Fishn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2009 07:02PM by Bill Stevens.

it seems to me that it is much much more important to have a rod and reel setup that feels good in your hand, as opposed to a rig that is uncomfortable, but is a fraction of an oz lighter.


Truer words have never been spoken.


While I don't debate that weight savings are a big issue, I have two rods that I currently fish for reds with and I made them both from the same blank, same reel seet, different handle material(Composite cork vs. regular cork) different guides, (Am Tac 316 ringlocks vs Fuji Alconite).

The Amtac/composite cork rod is about an ounce heavier than my cork/Alconite rod. It has some wood inlays on it which I'm sure contribute to the weight, plus the composite is just heavier than regular cork. I built the composite cork rod after the regular cork rod and I lengthened the distance from the end of the rod to the reel seat by about 3/4 inch.

While heavier, the composite cork/amtac rod feels SUBSTANTIALLY better to fish with. From lures to finger mullet its just a more comfortable rod. I just like the way the butt rests against my forearm for the leverage.

My other rod is great and fishes better than any off the shelf rod because it too was fit to me and what I like. I just find myself wishing I had caught the "Big One" on the composite cork/amtac rod....one ounce extra weight or not.

Dave
www.emeraldcoastrods.com

Everyone...my friends...tell me the lightest reel on any fly rod the better. I do not agree with that. However, I guess I should test it out. I have plenty of rods and reels to find out with.

I will say this though. I think I am with Mr. Terry Goode on this one. I like a balanced fly rod and reel. I prefer it balance in the middle of my grip. I have an 11' 6wt that I really like. However fishing from a boat with a 6wt reel and line....it was within an hour my wrist tired of holding the tip up. No problem casting or fishing....but haven't caught a fish on it yet. However it was quite disappointing to me out on the boat. I can see the same problem hiking up stream a mile or two and having to hold the rod up.....instead of it being just balanced in my hand.

The true issue of weight savings is not the measured weight of the rod, but the distance that weight savings is from the hand. It's easy to save an ounce of weight close to the hand, but much more important to save a gram of weight at the tip top. Polar moment of inertia of an object is the effective weight when being rotated around a pivot point. A pool cue weighs the same amount but the distribution of weight makes it feel much heavier when grabbed at the tip rather than the butt.
Tape a quarter ounce weight to your favorite reel and swing the rod. Chances are you won't feel the difference. Remove that weight from the reel and attach it to the tip top. The difference is unquestionable. You want light static weight tape the reel to the blank and go fishing. You want light dynamic weight reduce the number of guides and use the lightest available near the tip.

Good point Eugenue

Behind the hand will help the rod 7 - 8 footer be more comfortable with the weight at the butt. To an extent !! You are holding an 7 -- 8 foot rod and of course it will be tip heavy. balance, where at the butt- but to an extend. You can also go to heavy and ruin the whole rod. There is only so much one can do ???

Like split grips -- they look good, the new thing -- but the weight at the butt go's away. Tip gets more heavy - Fish it all day and your arm hurts ?? But you look good ???

Bill - willierods.com

A 7' 3.4 oz rod sure does balance nicely with only a 7.6 oz curado E7 reel... total weight = 11 oz.

2000 casts in a day (like today) - worth every bit of weight savings. I fished that rod the entire day today. I never felt a bit of fatigue - paid off in maintaining my intensity the entire day.

Might be a bit a difference in perspective given what you fish for and how you do it.

To your point regarding people trying something new - many times that's also the difference in those truly competitive and those who produce the same results every weekend and are happy with what they catch...

Just wondering - but what are you specifically referring to with this: "Contrast this with recent ideas, that seem to be a good idea, but find an overwelming lack of interest - with long term use of this particular idea."

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Enjoyed reading.

I'm one of those who are weight nuts. But absolutely NEVER at the expense of ergonomics.

My guess is it depends on what you are fishing for and how you are fishing for it. I build for the lighter end of things and weight is one of the critical factors for me. A few notes:

1. The saving of weight and building a comfortable handle is not opposed to each other. In fact, I do not believe in saving weight at the expense of a single iota of comfort. You can build for BOTH simultaneously.
2 Balance is every bit as important, if not more important, than weight.

For our type of fishing with very light lines, I will say that very light weight rig that is perfectly BALANCED gives an experience that must be tried to be appreciated. For example, I recently felt a 1.1 oz 6 footer balanced perfectly on the first finger when attached to a 5.5 oz reel. That made for a 6.6 oz rig perfectly balanced. You cast a lightweight jig with that and the sense of effortlessness is really remarkable. Nothing in the factory rod, no matter what price, achieves that kind of effortless feel and sensitivity.


Mo



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2009 08:29PM by Mo Yang.

I half heartedly prefer a rod a little tip heavy over neutral. I fish top water plugs a lot and I find I get the best action on my lures by fishing with the tip down. Wiht a little more tip weight the rod seems to "fall" easier and I don't have that stress on my wrist pushing the tip down.
Go fish a Super Spook for 8 hours and tll me if you want to add stress to your arm.

matthew - great point - not all rigs need to be balanced the same. Some are good tip heavy. I'm the same on a TW rod - a little tip heavy is just fine.

Light is always good though.

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I’m a fanatic about balancing my fly rod / reel since 10% of the time you are casting and 90% of the time you are holding the rod fishing. There’s nothing more miserable for me than fishing a tip heavy rod all day, and the second most miserable thing is fishing a butt heavy rod all day. When fishing, a balanced rod feels a lot lighter than a unbalanced rod an ounce +/- ligher, IMO.

By rote, many anglers, use 4 wt reel for a 4wt rod solely based on the line weight rating. The fact of the matter is a 7’ 4wt will balance out a lot differently than a 9’4wt. Also, as we all know, different rod brands and tapers change the balance point. I choose a reel to balance out the rod with a reel by its weight as well as recommended line rating. Many of the modern reels are lightweight enough to balance out the newer and lighter blanks.

I mess around refurbing some old boo rods. I use an older, heavier reel (like a Pfluger Medalist) to balance them out and/or add weight to the butt to keep it balanced. Try fishing a 6oz boo rod with a newer 4oz reel. After a season of fishing it for a season, your forearms will look like Popeye’s…minus the anchor tattoo.

Good way to go. The reel has no idea what line you put on it. I have always wished that reels were sized by letters instead of numbers. Too many fly fishermen are under the impression that a #67 reel must be spooled with a #6 or #7 line, only.

..........

To achieve that elusive "balance" which is so desirable, instead of adding weight to the butt of the rod how about filling the blank with helium and sealing it in?