Well its back to the float rod questions. I have my 13 footer all wrapped up with the lower height guides on it (as you may remember from my previous questions) and just like the store bought rods that I have it is extremely out of balance. It turns out that it is tip heavy (just like the rest). Even after I installed my G.Loomis centerpin reel ( which is on of the heavier reels out there) it still wants to drop. I did some tests to see how much weight it would take to level it out and I would have to add over 4 ounces to the but of the rod if I want to keep my reel where it is comfortable. To me this sounds all wrong. Are they all like this because of their length?

Mike



G.Loomis ST1562S X Frontier blank (13' 2 pc.)
ATC A-Frame Guides w/Nanolite
20" Tennessee style cork grip

There's only so much you can do with a long rod like that one. I'm not sure that adding an additional 4 ounces to the butt of the rod isn't going to be more tiring than just fishing the rod a little tip heavy. Plus, once you string up the rod and add your lure/bait, etc., the balance is going to change anyway.

If you do add weight, do so in a manner that will allow you to remove it if you decide you don't like it that way.

...............

Instead of adding weight, can you change your hand position? Hold it further up away from the butt but leaving the reel where it is. That way, the reel can counterbalance the long tip of the rod better.

Mo

Mike,
One thing that some folks do is to remove the butt cap, and insert an 8-10 inch extension into the butt of the rod.
Essentially you are creating a split grip rod.
Then, bury an oz or two of weight in the extreme end of the butt section and you will likely find the rod balanced.
You can fish this way for a bit if you want and try it both with the butt extension to make the rod balanced, as well as without.

If you want to make it permanent, go ahead and glue in the extension and finish it off as you would like to do.

By putting an extension on the butt of the rod you are in reality moving the reel seat forward which allows you to achieve balance with much less weight than you would have with a shorter back grip.

DON'T make the mistake of putting weight up the inside of the blank.
If you want to balance a rod, keep all of the weight behind the butt cap. You want to have a mass balance behind the butt cap to give you the longest balance arm to balance your rod with the least amount of weight.
That is why, the addition of a butt extension, with a mass weight at the extreme end of the extension gives you the most balance with the least added weight.

Good luck
Roger

This is how I solved the balance issue on my 13' Talon - with no additional weight added.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

p.s.
In the future, if you want to balance a 13 foot rod with a short back grip, move the reel all of the way back and make a grip for your hand several inches in front of the reel.
There is a name for this rod style that is used in the pacific northwest which escapes me.
Essentially you are using the weight of the reel to act as a mass balance and then moving your hand forward on the rod to achieve balance.

Here is one example of the style rod of which I speak:

[products.gloomis.com]

Take care
Roger

Mike,
I am also not ssure if at the end of a days fishing you will be more tired if you add 3 or 4 ounces of weight to your rod to balance it or not. But one thing that I am absolutely sure of is that adding that additional weight increases the mass and increasing the mass will reduce the rods sensitivity or what you will be able to feel. In other words, if you add several ounces of weight it will take more energy from the fish's bite to give you the same amount of displacement or movement at the rods handle. You cannot control the energy in the fish's bite which means if you add weight you will get less displacement or you will feel less.
In some types of fishing this reduced rod sensitivity will not be important but in some types of fishing it is extremely important.

Mike Molenda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > G.Loomis ST1562S X Frontier blank (13' 2 pc.)
> ATC A-Frame Guides w/Nanolite
> 20" Tennessee style cork grip

I've built on this blank in the past. It's got some power for a 4-8lb rated rod ...more like a 6-10lb or 6-12lb IMHO. As others have mentioned though, when dealing with a rod of this length it's going to be top heavy. It's just a matter of keeping things as light as possible up top and locating the reel to optimize weight distribution. For me, this meant dropping quickly from a #20 stripper guide down to an #8 (20-16-10-8), then utilizing #7 single foot fly guides out to the tip (or 6's if freezing won't be much of an issue). I kept my wraps as short as possible and my finish light. I too thought about adding weight, but later decided to play around with the reel position instead. What I found was that by moving the reel further up the rod, the handle behind the reel worked as a counterbalance to offset the tip heaviness without having to add additional weight.
I used a 20" Tennesse handle to find the optimal reel location , then put together a fixed reelseat handle once I was happy with the way things balanced out. What ended up working well for me on that particular rod was having the reel positioned 11" from the butt.

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> p.s.
> In the future, if you want to balance a 13 foot
> rod with a short back grip, move the reel all of
> the way back and make a grip for your hand several
> inches in front of the reel.
> There is a name for this rod style that is used in
> the pacific northwest which escapes me.
> Essentially you are using the weight of the reel
> to act as a mass balance and then moving your hand
> forward on the rod to achieve balance.
>
> Here is one example of the style rod of which I
> speak:
>
> [products.gloomis.com]
> detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441812070&FOL
> DER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302053613&ASSORTMENT%3C%
> 3East_id=1408474395181201&bmUID=1257292942066
>
> Take care
> Roger

I'm sure this grip has several names but I know it as a Michigan grip - favored grip for long Steelhead rods. I'm sure it's referred to as a Washington or Oregon grip in the northwest - everyone puts their stamp on it.

I was thinking that the addition of all that weight might make it harder to fish all day and I wish I could move the reel back but the method of fishing done with this setup requires me to have my hand as close to the reel as possible. I use my little finger as the drag seeing that it is a free spinning center pin (or float reel).

Tim, What is that picture showing me?? I don't see any modifications that would make it balance out.

Mike

The other alternative is to buy a really heavy reel, or apply lead tape to a reel you already own. This would "balance" your rig by moving the fulcrum away from the butt of the rod.

Phil,
Mass is mass whether it is mass in the reel or mass in the rod. Added weight will have the same negative affect on the rods sensitivity whether it is in the handle of the rod or in the reel.

"Mass is mass." Exactly so. The only ways I can think of to change the "balance" of a rod-reel combination is to either add a relatively substantial amount of mass to the butt end of the rod (which seems to be gaining in popularity !!), or to move the handle, but not the reelseat, several inches toward the rod tip. At first impression either one of these alternatives seems terribly clumsy. It may still be possible to reduce the mass of rod blanks themselves enough to make a substantial difference in the "balance" of a rod, but the amazingly light weight of most of today's blanks seem to preclude this possibility. It looks to me like we are doomed to cast with "unbalanced" outfits.

The trouble with moving the reel seat is that you tend to negate the reasons why you put it in a particular place to begin with - to fit the angler? To allow two-handed casting? For greater comfort or function?

There are times when balance can be very important, but for most anglers in most situations I think that other considerations trump the balance thing. Putting the handle where it allows you to make best of the rod for your particular technique is one of those things. I guess I've tended to simply build as light as I can and let the balance fall where it may.

..................

I think that I would rather have a very light, sensitive unbalanced rod any day that a heavy, balanced rod anytime. Weight is weight, no matter where it is and it will reduce sensitivity of the rod and probably result in increased faticue.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I think that I would rather have a very light, sensitive unbalanced rod any day that a heavy, balanced rod anytime. Weight is weight, no matter where it is and it will reduce sensitivity of the rod and probably result in increased fatigue.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!