As practice I am re-wrapping a 7' spinning rod. Why I'm at it I might as well try the 27X method. The spool diameter is about 2.5" and this puts me off the end of the rod (long butt grip).

Should I treat the tip top as my first choker guide and set the guides so a line from centerline of reel to tip just touches the outside frame of the guides?

Originally the rod had six guides and I'm trying to set it up with eight. I have a size 8 tip and two size 8 running guides. Those first two #8 guides are within the first 8" and from there it is basically old school "cone of flight" looking. Static distribution looks good other than one small area which I don't know if it matters. The next guide up from the butt guide...when the rod has no load on it the line doesn't quite touch the guide....it is fine once I load the rod a bit though. But maybe that guide, a size 30, should be made a 25?

I was trying to heed the advice not to use every size guide made but in this case it seems I have little choice.

Rusell, here's a post that I made on this topic a couple of years ago. The "article" referenced is the original Rodmaker article that contained the 27 information for the first time. I hope it helps:

The first time I ran into this situation, I too had troubles getting my head around it. But what helped me is actually in the article.

It mentions in the NGC article that in circumstances where you're using a large spinning reel with a short rod, the 27 method may put you at or near the tip top. The example given in the article was tuna jigging rods, where huge spinning reels are attached to short, stout rods.

I was OK with that, but the little 7-foot pier rod I was building was about as much like a tuna rod as I'm like Pam Anderson. Or so I thought, until I realized that any time you're using a big reel with a wide spool, you're in the same boat (har!) as the tuna guys. Think of this another way: if you're using a 6 1/2 foot light freshwater rod with a tiny spinning reel, the NGC is going to make sense, putting the choker pretty far away from the top. But take a saltwater rod the same length, say a redfish boat rod, and attach a much larger spinning reel (which you're going to need for salty species like redfish, striper, and blues), and now your choke point is much farther away, probably near or even past the tip top. Suddenly, you're in tuna town: a big reel on a short rod.

So don't worry about it too much: just follow the method, and you'll be OK. Once you've finished and fished the rod, you'll realize that the method works, even when the placement the NGC gives you seems, at first glance, to make little sense. When I face this situation now, I don't even give it a second glance, because I've learned that the NGC works here too.

The 27X factor is based on spool diameter. Rod length is immaterial. In an extreme situation where you have a very large diameter reel and a short rod, the choker guide may fall beyond the rod tip. In those situations, the tiptop is the choker guide.

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Well Tom, I don't consider it that big of a reel, shimano baitcaster 4500, nor the rod that short at 7'.

So if my tip top is my choker do I just take a straight line from centerline of reel to tip top and set the other guides so their outside edge just touches this line? I'm just not understanding how I approach things when the tip top is the choker given that I'd like to have seven guides between the tip and the butt guide. I suppose I can try that and see how it compares with static load testing.


Russ
P.S. Chris, funny you mention tuna . Best fight I ever had on that rod was a blackfin tuna.

A 2.5 inch diameter spool is a large spool compared to most spinning reels. Do just what you said - set the line path from spool centerline to tiptop and set the guides so their outside edge touches the line path. In effect, the NGC from reel to choker is a modified "tighter" cone of flight system.

If you're using very light line, or braid, you can try the choker a little closer - or use the spool upsweep method (which may also put the choker off the rod tip).

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You might want to try the 21X method as an alternative and see how that works.

How close you can put the choke guide depends on the size and stiffness of your line. 27X is great because it works with ALL line sizes and types. Above Tom mentioned trying it a little closer if you are using light mono or braid. That\'s worth a try.

Keep in mind that where the choker goes is not supposed to be based on looks or rod length. It goes where it goes so that the line can be controlled quickly but not so quickly that it creates line slap or overruns on the first guides. The reel spool size is the determining factor. With a larger reel and a shorter rod you may not need a choke guide at all! The idea that you have to have one is not realistic if there is no room for it.

One more thing you can try and this is what we did when the spool upsweep method put the choke guide off the rod tip............stand the blank up and flex the tip over until it goes 90 degrees to the rest of the rod. Make a mark at the point where the rod shows no flex. On a fast action blank this is gonna be about a third of the way back from the tip. Put the choke guide right there. Just remember that if your line is heavy or stiff, it may be too close. But if your line is light or you use braid you might find it to work very well for you. Good luck!

Okay guys, I just got home and gave that approach a quick try. For it to work I'm going to need some very high frame and/or large guides. Can someone tell me the height of a BHVLG40HH? The way it stands I'd need a BSVLG16 12" from the tip. I guess my old(er) reel sits much higher off the blank.

If casting performance is not a primary concern should I even be considering this approach?

You did not say what line test or type you plan to use. With a Penn 4500 I doubt it will be small or light, right? Braid maybe? Where the choke guide best falls depends on the spool size and line used. You cannot just pull it closer arbitrarily with the heavier lines and expect it to work well. So I would stick with the tip top guide as the choke guide if using heavier line or any mono over the lightest pound tests. If you do wind up pulling the choker back behind the tip make sure to test cast.

A 40HH is a little over 3 inches high. I'd start there and then set up the remainder so that the line has a straight path on out to the tip. Doing it this way may mean that you have a little discrepancy with the path between the reel and the butt guide, but I don't think it's going to hurt you very much. Just make sure that once the line reaches the butt guide, it has a straight path from there on to the tip. I think you'll find this works nicely for what you're wanting to do.

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Thank you gentlemen. I will be fishing 15# mono as many of the boats here don't allow braid. Tom the 40HH sounds about right. Care to make a guess on the rest? Not too sure how many need to be high frame. Also not sure if one would ever go from 40HH to regular 40 or always step down to a 30 (high frame or not). I have 65" from face of reel to tip top and centerline of reel is about 4" from centerline of blank.

Can someone point me to a place that has the height of the various guides? That would make life a lot easier/cheaper as what I have bought is all wrong.

Mike Barkley has a website that keeps some of that information, I think. You may find that you can go from the 40 to a 25. I'd have to set it up to get all the sizes, but if you have any old guides around you should have enough to plot things out and then order the specific type you need.


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Ken Finch Wrote:
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> You did not say what line test or type you plan to
> use. With a Penn 4500 I doubt it will be small or
> light, right? Braid maybe? Where the choke guide
> best falls depends on the spool size and line
> used. You cannot just pull it closer arbitrarily
> with the heavier lines and expect it to work well.


Hi Ken, if you doubt the line would be small or light, what weight line would you use on this reel (excluding braid) - based on requiring a 40mm butt guide? Thanks.

I choose the guides to suit the reel and line, not the other way around. I would agree that 27X seems to be the magic number for any size line but on smaller line you can go a little closer. But with a 4500 size reel I would doubt the guy is going with small pound test. Not 8, 10 or 12. The 15 or 20 pound test was my guess all along.

Russell,

You might want to try starting with a regular spinning 40 and proceed from there.

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Russ, I don't have measurements, but I do have a couple of pictures that might help you. I can't post them here, unfortunately -- I'm at work -- but email me and I'll send them to you.

I have BSVLG guides on there now and the butt guide is a 40. The blank had been clear coated after it was originally wrapped with double foot guides. I was taking the easy route and planned to put all wraps back in the original location. I did that but I need the practice and if I can make the rod fish better why not. I can always sand and re-permagloss if I am a glutton for punishment.

All and all the 40HH sounds about perfect. It is just a matter of getting the right guides for the others. I lack the experience to know if I'm going to need the size 8 thru 30 guides in high frame as well. Seems silly that we can't readily find dimensions on these parts.

You can get down quickly enough that you don't need them in the super high versions, just the standard BSVLG, but if you do you'll have to go with the 30 for the second guide.

If you stick with the regular BSVLG 40, you could move to the 25 for the second guide with no trouble.

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You talked me into it Tom. I'll go with standard 40 and 25. I do have a new reel that could fish anything from 6# mono to 15# braid. That should make for a better 27X fit and give me two chances to get it right.

Besides, I need to move on. I have not even started the two rods that were to be my first projects and I'm still mired in things like "best rod wrapper RPM range". I did get a sweet motor donated to the cause....115 volts DC, 1150 RPM, 1/6 HP. Thinking 2:1 on the belt drive. 0-575 for wrapping and 0-2,300 for cork. Sound about right? Just need a chuck solution.....and rollers....and a thread carriage....and time. For now thread bobbins, phone books, and wood v-blocks will do.

Well, approach it as a fun project and you'll be fine. It's all a learning experience.

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