Why Salmon fishing this past week I noticed something on two of my spinning rods during the retrieve. On my 9 1/2' G3 GLoomis, the line only touches the butt and next transition guide rings from about 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock in the fishing position. When the line got to the 2 o'clock position, it moved horizontally across to the 10 o'clock position on both guides. The line stayed in the bottom (6 o'clock) on the 3rd transition ring, choke guide, and all of the running guides. I saw the same thing on my Batson 1025 and both rods were built with the table edge method with 25-16-8 transition guides. Using 2 different reels that fell between the 25 and 30 guide size, I opted for the smaller guides for less weight. I could have used 30mm guides which would have moved them closer than the 21" butt guide distance I have now but may have wound up with more weight on the rod than I wanted.

These butt guide distances were based on watching the line coils pile up in front of the butt guide and 21" was the spot where it stopped. The water level was up as well as the current so we were using nearly 1/2oz of lead to get our spawn to the bottom. I had no problems in casting distance and actually put it into the weeds on the far side on occasions. Just wondering if all NGC track this way or when properly set up, the line touches the entire ring on retrieve? Thanks.

I am struggling with some spinning rod set upsl - this post may contain a clue that will help me.

Does Tim's description outlining a potential situation have to to with the height of the guide frame alopng with the ring size? For the situation he is describing is the frame height too short, too tall or does it matter at all?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2009 11:12AM by Bill Stevens.

I would think that contact points during retrieve not nearly as important (if important at all) as how set up works with the line moving in the other direction. Logic tells me that if for some reason you wanted the line to touch the butt guide full circle it would have to be moved rearward a considerable distance-adversely effecting casting distance.

Chris and I share the same outlook on this situation. It doesn't matter to me if the lines touches all the way around the guide or not as long as when static tested the spacing gives an even bend and the cast is unhindered.
As far as the line only touching the bottom of the running guides goes, anytime the line is pulled down, such as a retrieve with a weight or lure, it can't help but touch only the bottom of the guide.

Tim,
I had built a rod or two for a customer many years ago who was unhappy because of the identical situation that you describe.

For all of his future builds as well as many of my other builds I have solved this problem by using a different sized set of guides.
For those rod applications, where heavy lines are being use, and or heavy lures, it seems to make a much better rod, if the line will follow the full circumference of the guide.

In most instances, for these rods which tended to use larger reels, I went to either a size 30 or larger butt guide, as well as a larger 2nd guide.

When pulling heavy line and or heavy lures and or weight, there is quite a difference in retrieving ease by following these changes.

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To test the difference, do some test casting where you have everything identical except for the first two guides. In the first instance, tie up the guides using the conventional sized guides that you would normally use.
Then, in the 2nd instance, tie up the first two guides, going one or two sizes larger than you would - and insure that these sizes allow you to follow the full circumference of each of the guides.
The main thing that you are testing, is NOT the casting distance, but the ease of retrival.



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Take care

Roger

The line should not revolve around the ring. The idea is to have it contact the ring at one point and stay put as much as possible.

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I agree with Tom. If you stick a huge butt guide on there the line will track the ring. With a higher and smaller ring you are trying to get it sit in the bottom of the ring. It might move a little back and forth on the butt or next guide but if its still revolving on those or the rest your guides are too large in diameter.

It was my understanding that part of the reason you set the outside of the guide ring on the line path between spool center and choker is to STOP the line from revolving in those guides.

The old COF system was based on the line revolving around all the rings. The NGC is supposed to stop that from happening.

Is it not that the hole idea to have the correct ring size to control the -- pig tails -- and to make a longer cast ??? Why worry about the retrieve ??

Bill - willierods.com

If the line revolves around the entire ring circumference on the retrieve, you aren't controlling the line. You may and likely will experience line slap against the rod on the retrieve.

Tom, why is the idea to have the line contact the ring at one point (on the retrieve)? In this string of posts we have one posting that says that having the line go all around the ring makes for less retrieve effort and another that says if it goes around the ring you aren't controlling the line and you likely will experience line slap on the retrieve. On my rods the line goes directly from the line pickup to the first guide, and that doesn't take it into contact with the blank. I'm not sure why controlling the line on the retrieve is important if it isn't possible for it to contact the blank. I haven't done any testing on whether contacting the guide at one point or all around is better, but am interested in more info on the various theories. Would help to hear the "why" of the different ideas on the best way to design.

Why would having the line revolve around the entire ring reduce retrieve effort? If that were the case, why have the guide there at all? Remove it and let the line revolve in a large circle.

The objective should be to keep the line from revolving in a large circle - that's the disadvantage of spinning equipment to begin with.

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Why would having the line revolve around the entire ring reduce retrieve effort? Why would it not? Where's the data? Maybe it would reduce the effort because it would minimize the force on the guide by keeping contact constant and at low force and make the overall effort less than forcing the line against the guide at one point. I'm still looking for data. Or the results of tests.

Why have the guide there at all may be for optimum line control on the cast, not the retrieve. I really believe, admittedly without data, that the guide is a lot more important on the cast than on the retrieve.

The type friction you suggest doesn't exist there. Friction is a function of the pressure forcing the specific surfaces together. No such pressure exists there to pressure the line against the ring.

Do your own test - rig up a rod both ways and try it. You won't be able to tell any difference in retrieve effort.

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I really don't expect to be able to tell the difference, but still don't know why it makes any difference if the line revolves in a large circle on retrieve. It is stated that the objective is to keep it from doing that, and one writer states that if you don't "control" it the line might slap the rod, but I have rods that work both ways (line stays put at the bottom of the ring and line revolves all around the ring) and have never seen that. I suspect this whole issue on the retrieve is insignificant to a rod's function-that guide placement and alignment should be optimized for the cast and forget about the retrieve. I suspect this whole issue is a lot like the worrying about the line path of a simple spiral when there is a much greater distortion in the line path at the level wind guide of the reel.

I have to disagree that there is no force applied by the line to the rod guide, though. It isn't much, and is probably insignificant, but there is force and there is friction. If there were no force the line wouldn't be "controlled," but would revolve in the big circle.

Line slap on the blank does happen. A too large ring, or too short frame, or improper placement can cause it both on the cast and on the retrieve.

I didn't say there wasn't some force or pressure - I said it did not exist there to the extent that it would cause any practical change in retrieve effort. Forgive me if I didn't spell that out plainly enough.

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