In the "Toxic Dust" post below, the link Alex posted listed some things like "Nearly all epoxies (or resins?) are carcinogenic", and "Everyone eventually becomes sensitised to epoxy". Are these claims real? It sounds like they are talking about boat building with epoxies, which would have a lot more exposure, and different products.

In the MSDS info I have seen on most rod building epoxy glues and finishes I didn't see any of them listed as carcinogenic. Also, I remember in an older thread something like only 1 out of 2000 people becomes sensitised.

Before going in to rod building full time, I spoke with Roger Seiders of Flex Coat, and he was very confident that the health risks of epoxy rod building products was very low.

Does anyone know if our finishes and glues are carcinogenic? Also, am I right about the 1 out of 2000 becoming sensitised?

Thanks,
Marc

You are correct. It happens, but it's fairly rare. If it was all too commonplace, epoxies would not have remained on the market. No one would be able to use them.

Obviously this isn't a blank check to use them carelessly or to disregard normal cautions, but used with common sense epoxies are reasonably safe.

...............

Users of chemicals that have potential harmful effects are required to obtain the proper instructions. These instructions come in the form of MSDS Sheets. Sellers of products that contain harmful chemicals are required by law to make this information available to users.

Those who are not aware of potential side effects may employ practices that will increase their change of harmful side effects. My common sense did not tell me that I should not work in a very confined space and flame freshly applied epoxy surfaces with a blow torch while holding my arm over the surface.

Take a look at this link to review printed material available on two part epoxy systems.

[www.dermnetnz.org]

Marc - I don't know how 100% accurate that link is (it is the internet ya know...), but it does say twice "Epoxy is also NOT a carcinogen." and one goes on to say "That has been well proven by OSHA and many others in industry. What epoxy is, is a skin sensitizer."

It did say was "epoxy hardeners are proven carcinogens"... guess you need to see the chemical makeup to prove this, and I am guessing it would vary depending on the product. I would question the validity of that until I saw some proof.

My main spin was the fact epoxy, specifically amine sensitization, can be a pain to deal with. What a lot of folks probably never thought about is you may be exposing your family who are in the house where you do this stuff. I realized early on I couldn't work in the house because my wife developed headaches within an hour of laying finish. That made me realize my 4 year old doesn't need to be in the room when I do finish either. Just better to be safe in my book.

This is probably a better link to read: [dermnetnz.org] (Bill beat me to it!)

This has some info regarding numbers of people with allergies: [www.rc-soar.com] - Note from this link: "After chromium and rubber chemicals, epoxy resin compounds are the third most frequent cause of occupational allergic dermatoses [skin reactions]."

You can always do a cross reference using your MSDS against a list of known carcinogens: [www.mcnallyinstitute.com]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2009 10:27AM by Alex Dziengielewski.

The problem with common sense is that you cannot rely on people to have it or if they have it, to use it. Common Sense told me not to breathe vapors of epoxy or to stick my skin in it. The voice in the next guy\'s head may not tell him the same thing. This is why the MDSD are required reading or should be. But I bet few ever bother with to read them.

It is very easy to get confused when reading about things that are not in your field.

Most anything bad to do with epoxy is all about contact with your skin. It isn't anything to do with vapors. So keeping the epoxy from making contact with your skin is the big thing. If you dig a little deeper you will discover that the contributing factors are key. In particular the practice of washing your hands with actetone!!!! Epoxy resins are not all equal and some used chemicals (in the past) that are no longer commonly used. You would like to have a product that doesn't contain formaldehyde or phenol. You would like to avoid aliphatic amines too.

The three best things most guys could do are:
1) Wear disposable vinyl gloves.
2) Wash your hands with a waterless hand cleaner and follow up with warm water and normal soap.
3) Ask for as much info as you can get about the ingredients in your epoxy. Most of the better products are only too happy to point out how much safer they are (such as diamine based hardeners).


Russ
P.S. Yes, some are sensitive and they must take care with vapors. Often those people are aware as they must watch out for foods that contain amines.

Russell - you are right - and it's also easy to be overconcerned if you don't understand what you are reading.

I found this site as well [www.westsystem.com] - coming from West Systems.

Interesting note on the West site:
"Inhaling concentrated epoxy vapors, if done frequently or for long periods, can irritate your respiratory tract. Exposing sensitive skin areas, like the eyelids, to highly concentrated epoxy vapors may cause itching and swelling."

Granted most builders will have adequate ventilation and most of use aren't doing a lot of sanding on partially cured epoxy with rodbuilding (so dust not an issue) - but some are working in close proximity (like leaning over the rod to see) or smaller spaces, and probably keeping airflow to a minimum to reduce dust potential. Just things to consider.

Good page with some steps on prevention: [www.westsystem.com]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2009 02:31PM by Alex Dziengielewski.

Alex, (IIRC) west system still uses "old school" amines/additives. Epoxy is made for different uses. I "think" west's was made for making propeller blades on wind turbines. It was not formulated (purposely) for boat hulls. The epoxy we would use for thread finish would be a "casting resin". Reading info on "laminating resin" might not be relevant.

Common sense works. Gloves, ventilation, and respirator are always a good idea. What is considered safe today won't be tomorrow:) For example, all wood dust is considered carcinogenic in Australia now. Never mind that you and I have enough wood dust in our lungs to create a small forest.

The point I'm making is that epoxy is probably a lot safer than the products we used in the past. I'd call it safer than one-part urethane (permagloss). Two-part urethanes are very nasty. Sometimes it comes down to "what are my choices". When you add it all up I think you will conclude that epoxy is the best choice....unless you have a problem with amines.


Russ
P.S. Now we need to calculate the reduction in your life due to the stress of being concerned over epoxy. But seriously, if I managed to get only one thing across let it be to not use a solvent to wash epoxy off your hands.

Russell -

Can you explain what differentiates casting and laminating resins? The few companies I see online with details seem to use the same type of resins but different hardeners, much like the west system does, for different applications.

Last time I checked West Systems is what was promoted for laminating the carbon skinned grips. So it's relevant in that regard.

If making these grips you may be creating some dust as most of the folks making them I've talked to tend to pop them on the lathe and sand them down. So now dust is relevant.

Without knowing your background, you sound knowledgable regarding chemicals. I repsect that. Side two of that though is someone (like myself) without a chemical background having to navigate waters the best possible using the information at hand. Info such as what's been listed can be helpful.

Promise you it doesn't stress me out - however when you wake up one moring and your eyelids are fire engine red, start scaling over, skin flaking off, and feeling like they are about to itch off - you stress a little then until you figure out the cause and narrow it down and can put the correct preventative mesaures in place.

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I have a box of blue milking gloves that I buy at Fleet Supply store. If I am using epoxy I wear gloves.

My mistake Alex. I didn't know you were sanding. I use grainger stock# 6AD97 with 4JG10 cartridges when I'm sanding epoxy (boat repairs). Wet sanding and working outdoors is best.

My background is in maintenance/repair/operations.


Russ

No harm no foul - but it always helps to clarify what's going on - I think a lot of time all of us talk general while parts get specific (I'm guilty of both) .

Yes I sand - but I have better results wet sanding my carbon grips, so hopefully that eliminates dust issues. Could be creating a whole different issue!

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Hey my wife can smell any epoxy I use, she has allergies. I also have a rod building friend who now wares a mask and gloves when using any type of epoxies. Who is to say if this stuff we are using today may come up and bite us in the future. Remember asbestos. That stuff was used every where, now look at the problems it has. So I now ware a mask and use gloves when I work with any epoxy. Better safe than sorry

Good Wraps Bob

Thanks everyone for all your replies! I am never disappointed in what a good quality group of folks are found here.

Thank you,
Marc

Not to be argumentative,

But there is no requirement (Regulatory driver.) for the "consumer" to obtain proper instuctions on chemicals that he/she uses. Workplace yes, home/hobby use no.

And when al else fails, many folks simply don't even read the label, much less an MSDS. But, it's great to hear the discussion/talk about health and safety (My profession) in the craft.

Also what I have figured out about common sense especially when it deals with safety and health; what's common sense to one person, is not common sense to the other.

Have a great day..

Marc one thing that goes against common sense and typical ventilation rules is:

If your work space is small

Air conditioned or heated with forced flow moving air currents

When the two part stuff is mixed and stirred little "tiny floaters" multi colored air bubble escape the surface of the mixing cup and/or pour plate - the floaters contain trace amounts of amines Take a mixing cup outside into the sunlight and carefully watch the surface and you will see them -

They remain in the moving air and have a high potential of "landing" on unprotected parts of your body.

Cut off all air moving fans in area prior to mixing -

Marc,
A couple of thoughts:

I used to build model airplanes for many years and found that quite a few of my fellow modelers had become sensitized to the use of epoxy glues. i.e. if they let any epoxy touch their skin, they would get headaches, or even worse.

I also found myself that I had become quite allergic to the use of the two part finishing system using the epoxy paints that are commonly found in modeling. In particular I found that I had become sensitive to the hardner that was used to set up the epoxy paints. This was the same reaction that many of my modeling friends had after much use with these paints. Then, even the use of the paints outside would cause issues and thus required that we stop using the paints.

In rod building work, although the use of epoxies are a concern, and even larger concern is the use of solvents, cleaners, and thinners that are commonly used to clean up epoxy, and rod finishing products.

Many of these are alcohol, Xylene, and Acetone. Of the three, obviously alcohol is the least toxic product. However, there are times when the use of just alcohol is insufficient to either clean, thin or remove the substance. Then, the use of the stronger Xylene and Acetone are required.

In particular, when working in the outside shop where I do my "dirty work" lathe work etc. and where I have an open flame heater - I find that the combination of the open flame and the use of either Xylene and or Acetone is a very bad combination. The heat causes changes in the make up of the solvent as it evaporates and really increases its toxic levels.

Bottom line -

Any of the products that we use can cause an allergic reaction to many folks. The use of some of these products in a poorly vented area can cause much more serious results.

Use good ventilation, use skin protection in the form of rubber gloves to keep the solvents from being absorbed through the skin as they will if not shielded. and avoid the use of open flame heat when using any of these products for the potential toxic changes in the substances themselves.

Be safe

Roger

Paul many Safety Professionals may comment on your line of thinking - MSDA sheets are also for the purpose of hobby as well as work place users. The real "regulatory driver" is the statement at the beginning of the OSHA Documentation that " the individual is responsilbe for personal safety". This wording is to insure that the liability of improper use utlimately always rests with the person who uses a productenen when on the job. The information flow is structured to insure all chemicals known to be detrimental are identified clearly and proper safety equipment and procedures are properly utilized. This applies to hobby use as well as work place - If you purchase a product that falls under the regulations it is the responsibility of the vendor to provide the MSDS Sheet and it is your responsibiltiy to follow the regulations

Bill..

You are correct when you say the vendor is required to supply an MSDS, but that is not the issue I was clarifying. There is NO regulatory driver for home/personal use; period. Is it wise and prudent and due dilligence on behalf of your family, sure. But that is not my point. And of course, it is the individual responsibility in the HOME to read and follow the safe handling and use instructions. In the workplace it is the employee AND THE SUPERVISOR....

What OSHA documentation are you talking about? Again, OSHA does not enforce you and I the rod builder under 29 CFR 1910.1200 or even the 5 (a) 1 General Duty Clause. Now, if you have a business and have10 employees that build rods for you, that's a different story.

FYI, just because a worker reads the label and MSDS for a chemical and understands it, does not mean the company is off the legal hook if the employee does not follow the recommended safe practices/precautions of the manufacturer.

My only point is this; OSHA does not govern you and I, the home rod builder using HAZMAT's in the home. They never have, and never will.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2009 11:50PM by Paul Rotkis.