I guess I find this a little odd too. For the same line weight or power and length, a graphite rod should be infinitely less tiring to fish than a bamboo or fiberglass rod. I once had to use an older Winston fiberglass saltwater fly rod. A #12 according to the label. No wonder there were so few saltwater fly fishermen back in the day! An hour had me plum tuckered out. With a modern graphite #12 I can fish all day.

Mo,
For your friends that wish the rod slower.
Pick up a spool of .015 lead wire used for fly tying.
Wrap the tip below your tip wrap with the wire in tight wraps until you've built the response they prefer.
A little will go a long way.
Overwrap with fly tying thread and coat with nail polish.
This will allow the additional weight to be removed or ammended as may times as they see fit.

Gene

Larry,

Yes sir, my discussion was only pertaining to fly rods, I should have clariffed that too.

What do you mean when you say, "I find it unpleasant trying to keep up with a graphite rod, and more taxing to do it all day."

You stated:
"And that is the biggest advantage to bamboo over anything else. You can get a rod that fits you, and not what some marketing drone decided you should like."

All of the major manufacturers I have sold rods for make different tapers (actions) to fit the individual need, preference, desire, and ability. As you know, not everyone can cast a medium action rod compared to a fast action rod. And, not everyone wants a lighting fast action rod. But, just because a rod is graphite does not make it fast or slow. I do agree that marketing drones have clouded the selection process. But I can tell you this; after teaching hundreds of folks of all ages and walks of life, faster action fly rods are NOT, in any way shape or form, harder to cast than slower action rods. In fact, I have witnessed the opposite in my teachings and experience. Thus, the marketing folks said just the oposite, so your statement I whole-hearted agree with.

I know that here in Alaska if I were to try and fish an ole' 9 foot 8 weight fiberglass rod with a 200 grain sink tip into a 15-20 knot wind, I would be ready for the funny farm within an hour as compared to a graphite rod with a fast action.

Also, taking a fly casting clinic from a certified and knowledgable fly casting instructor, can make all the difference in the world when it comes to tuning one's skills. I thought I was a great caster after flyfishing for many years...that was until the late Tom White and Steve Rajeff spent a day with me. Also, I have had guys with huge ego's in my flyfishing school, go on and on about how many years they have fished, all this and all that....and then we get to the casting segement of the school, only to find out they can't manage the line and can't cast 40 feet into a head wind. (Actually, I've seen their wives manage the line and cast better-yhey really hate that. LOL)

And in the end, it is all about what the customer wants...great point.

Paul

Gene,

I'm lost here-help a brother out. Where do you add lead wire? On the rod? Serious?

Paul

Adding weight to the rod, particularly in the upper 1/2 of its length, has the same effect as if you were using a rod made from a lower modulus material to begin with.

Let's say your car was too responsive - very quick to respond to throttle input or held the corners too well. Toss a few 50lb sacks of concrete in the back seat and trunk and you'll slow things down all the way around. In effect, you're making the car (or rod) less responsive and less efficient. I have no idea what the benefit would be, but some guys prefer things that way.

.............

I obviously have a lot to learn.


Walt

Tom:

Thanks for the explanation. The friends in my head kept telling me somehting like that too. I'm still scratching my head as to the benefit as well but, I guess to each his own.

Paul

It's all a matter of "feel", and that is a functiion of frequency. You are right, to each his own, and you can get what you like—provided it is less than what you have.

Some fisherman, some quite good, using jigs, bounce the rod end to impart motion into the jig. The frequency of the bounce at imparting motion can trigger the strike. These gentlemen change the frequency and amplitude of the bounce looking for a response from the fish. When they obtain the correct motion they elicit a strike. The rod's ability to recover on the bounce creates the amplitude and frequency of the desired motion. In general these fishermen prefer a rod with a slower damp and recovery. The use of weight to change the rod recovery can allow the fisherman to tune a fast rod to the desired characteristics.
This is a fishing technique that I've witnessed to be very effective in the hands of the correct people.

Gene Moore

Thanks for the clarification you guys....much apprciated.

Paul

ok .... I have two more Baby Catskill rods to plane (taper)... After that I'm going to try to reset my planing form to see how fast a taper I can make on a bamboo rod. The push/pull pins on mine are set at about 5 inches apart so this might not be as simple as it sounds. I think I'm going to have a problem if I try to do this in one pass. I will probably have to flip the planing form. Mine has a wide side(butt) and a thin (tip) side. So it MAY be possible. My concern is that I will be removing a lot of material over a short length of cane. Effectively making a 'buggy whip' that will not cast well at all. I think this is where the choice of material (cane) will ultimately fail. More as the experiment gets underway - probably a week or more away since hand planing cane takes time

Removing weight from the tip isn't going to make it a buggy whip, but there will probably be a limit to how much you can remove before loss of strength or power become an issue.

You may have to go about this the opposite way - keep the tip where it is and make the butt larger. Of course, that will result in a blank that is heavier overall, but you'll have more of the flex in the tip.

................

Tom -
This is my plan. Right now I think this will be a three piece rod. The lower section will be heavy (6 or 7 wt) the mid will be a 4 or 5 wt and the tip will be a 2 or 3 wt. I think that will give me the tolerances I need to maintain a decent amount of "power fibers" in the top 1/3 of the rod. Effectively I will be trying to keep most of the flex in the top 1/3 (or slightly less) of the overall rod length. I haven't yet decided but I think I will make this about 7 feet total length. My original concern was removal of to much material - or not being able to achieve a fast taper over a short distance - to the point where the integrity of the rod would be compromised.

Of course if anyone else has tried this or has thought about trying this I'm certainly open to suggestions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2009 03:45PM by Ken Preston.

Ken...

I look forward to hearing of the results. My utmost respect to those whom build a bamboo rod from scratch-I find it being the apex of custom rods.

Paul

I have noticed something on here, reading the posts and trying to learn. Today is my first day on this forum, I am a begining builder. I have gotten into building rods out of my love for a sport, the sport of fishing. I have had the previlage to hold in my hand, and actually fish with one time, a hand made bamboo rod, and would not trade the experience for anything. I would love to become good enough to craft one of these masterpieces myself, but the time it takes and the skill level is beyond me. One one experience with a bamboo rod, feeling it flex under my palm, watching the line sail out and float to the water surface, and then feeling the strike of a fish, setting the hook and feeling it fight as i took in the line. It was religous. Reading the posts, as i have through the eyes of a beginer, i sometimes feel like I am reading a scientific journal. I know how to find the spine, and the differance between fast actions, and slow action rods, i know what a light to medium powered rod means to me as a fisherman. When it comes to the average fisherman, espeacially when it comes to the average fly fisherman.... it is the beauty and grace of the moments spent on the water that matter most, not how many modules is in his rod, or even what it is made from.

Paul,
I have NO idea how this will turn out. I will certainly let everyone know how it turns out. I'll take all the measurements down to micrometer depth settings in case any one is interested later. Right now I've got 2 more bamboo and three more graphite fly rods to build plus a couple of boat/trolling rods and 12 rods to refinish ........ so probably will be a couple of weeks

Bobby I would agree with you up to a point. But you have to understand that this forum is for rod builders first, fishermen second. So rod builders naturally discuss the nuts and bolts of the rods and techniques involved and leave the sunsets and the fishing experience for the fishing forums. If you are looking for really first class rod building instruction you can find it here. If you are looking for fishermen waxing poetic about their on the water experiences you are apt to be disappointed.

Ken;
What you outline might work, but I don't kbnow how you will make the ferrule ends come together. What speeds up or slows down the taper is it's pitch, or the rate of change from the tip to the butt. With bamboo rods a medium action has a rate of change of between .013 and .015 per 5", a lower pitch than that results in a slower rod, a steeper pitch makes a faster rod. Generally speaking, you can start with the ferrule size typical to the length and line weight rod you want to make, for example an 8' 5 wt 2 pc. usually has a 13/64ths ferrule, start there and work each way with the progression you want. Straight tapers are easy to set up and work very well, Garrison basically made straight tapers with a slight swell in front of the grip and many Payne tapers are almost straight. One thing about bamboo rods that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that for those who like them, it's not about weight or efficiency, it's about appreciating it for what it is and how it works, how it looks enters into it,too. The price is usually(not always) indicative of what went into making it and the experience of the maker.
Nobody should be intimidated by a bamboo rod or think that making one is beyond them, it's just handwork and attention to detail. I've seen the pictures of the work done by many of the guys here, makes me glad bamboo rod buyers like the traditional look.
john



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2009 10:33PM by john channer.

Thanks John! This is really the type of information I needed to set up the planing form. Ive got plenty of Garrison, Leonard, Payne and other makers' tapers available to me from a host of books what I was "missing" was the rate of change numbers. I guess it just never occurred to me ... too many splinters or something

Thanks everyone.

I do think that with a high modulus graphite rod of equal power, i can approximate the action my friends get from fiberglass - and yes, I can weight the tip section to slow down the oscillation.

However, I think that the fiberglass hits just the right frequency they are looking for so that it is much easier. For example, with my graphite rods, to jig at a certain rhythm, I have to move the rod tucked under my arm by using my whole arm. However, with a specific rod, all the guy needs is to tap with his first finger for a particular oscillation. If I tap a lightweight high modulus rod, the recovery is so quick along with the damping that the tip just doesn't swing that much. So in short, the mass of the rods helps make particular oscillations much more easily achieved.

That said, I also believe that these fisherman have developed certain techniques because of their rod's particular behavior/limitations. I'm trying to open the doors to more methodologies by building stuff that is much faster oscillation and damping than before so that it will open a new range of techniques.

Thanks for everyone who replied. One of these days I should try a Bamboo rods just to see what it feels like. Anyone make Bamboo spinning bamboo rods.....:) (No, I don't really mean that - can't afford them.)

Mo