This board obviously, to me, focus primarily on graphite rods.

However, I also see enthusiasts in other forums who favor Bamboo rods - which can make even a custom Loomis GLX seem positively affordable. My read is that it is not all about tradition or elitism. These users really get whatever the advantages Bamboo rods offers. Almost always they are fly rods.

Then I read reviewers such as Tackletour who are now raving about some of the combo graphite/fiberglass rods the tested for certain applications. One of the main reviewer there claimed to be skeptical at first about fiberglass and then was 'converted'.

Finally, I've been in conversation with what may be the best trout fisherman I know. He's designed some rods for a manufacturers, works in the industry, and fish in a very diverse range of conditions from local lakes to the Sierras out west. He's been noting that under certain conditions, the fiberglass rods can often catch a lot more trout than the graphite rods because they impart a certain action on specific lures that he has not seen reproduced by graphite rods. He's developed a whole range of techniques that is specific to fiberglass since graphite responds differently. He is truly graphite/fiberglass agnostic so he does not have any personal investment in either. In short, he always has both graphite and fiberglass when he travels to respond to the conditions at hand. He has sufficient anecdotal experiences, both personal and others, that I give him credence.

I remain convinced that graphite rods, the lighter the better, is going to usually perform better but am also open to learn about what I am missing.

So anyone here care to comment about possible advantages of bamboo and fiberglass in terms of fishing performance that may not be in graphite? (I'm not concerned about durability issues for now.)

OK, looking forward to the comments.

Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2009 01:14AM by Mo Yang.

Good topic, Mo.

I build fly rods, and really like fiberglass rods for dry fly fishing, particularly in the lighter lines (4wt and down), due to their ability to deliver a wide loop. This enables a very gentle presentation that, while possible with graphite, just isn't very easy to accomplish.

I just finished a 4wt (ERN=3.58), 7'6" Lamiglas. I built it with a custom flared slide ring reel seat and put single foot guides on it to keep it as light as possible. With a 3wt line I was able to effectively and accurately cast just the leader, as well as put out 60' of line, laying it out so it landed with a whisper. On the downside, when you have that much line out and a fish takes your fly, it can be pretty darned difficult to take up all of the slack in the system to set the hook. The deeper flex just doesn't respond quickly.

Another benefit is that, since the rod flexes much deeper, I have to slow down my casting stroke, resulting in a much slower pace of fishing. No technical advantage here, It's just more relaxing on the water.


Walt

Mo
I build and fish with bamboo rods (fly, casting, spinning) and I own several classic, collectible bamboo rods (Leonard, Orvis, H-I, Edwards etc.). As Walt has written - there is nothing like them. They fish 'slower' , with a parabolic curve, that flexes from the tip to the butt, under the hand. Since most bamboo rods are built solid to the core (4, 5 or 6 strips) you can step on them and they will not break (crush). New bamboo rods - made with a good modern (epoxy) glue, properly sectioned (nodes off set) and finished with modern finishes (polyurethane) and nylon wrappings - are very, very tough and with minimum care will last a lifetime. Many of the collectible bamboo rods have been around for over 100 years - a feat in itself.
Like Walt I appreciate the slower cast and recovery of the rods - when I fly fish I like to slow way down and I enjoy the surroundings as much as the fishing. I'm sure I would catch more fish on a graphite rod due to faster tip speed (thereby increasing hook setting speed) and if I were fishing in a tournament or fishing to feed myself I would certainly look to graphite but I seem to work harder (more, shorter casts) with graphite. I suppose it comes down to what enjoyment someone gets from fishing more so than technical advantages.

The differences you fellows are discussing are differences in the structures involved, not the materials themselves. Of course, the material you use dictates exactly what you can do structure-wise.

You can build a graphite rod that will mimic bamboo (or glass), but not vice versa. If you want it to feel and act like bamboo (or glass), you make it as heavy as bamboo (or glass). If you were to roll a very small diameter (solid even), heavy wall graphite blank with a very shallow taper you'd have something that feels and acts like bamboo.

Rod speed (reaction and recovery) is a matter of weight and weight distribution. Here again, you can mimic bamboo with graphite, if you wanted to do so. But not vice versa.

The material the rod is made from has nothing to do with its action. You can make a fast action rod from bamboo and you can make a slow action rod from graphite. Don't confuse what the manufacturers chooses to do with a material with what is possible to do with a material.

In a nutshell, the higher modulus fibers can do all the lower modulus fibers can and more, but the lower modulus fibers cannot do what the higher modulus fibers can.


.................

Hmm -
I just finished a Leonard "Baby Catskill" bamboo rod (7 feet 3-4wt) that weighs in at 1.91 oz - bare blank. I think if I were to take a similar graphite blank and add heavy guides and tip top I could slow the tip speed and get the rod to flex farther down into the blank (basically create a "dog") - but I don't think it would have nearly the full parabolic flex of 'boo. Since I also have a 3 wt AmTak matrix blank on the way to me I'll give this a try - I'm always willing to try things out and thereby learn. Since this would be for me and not a customer I can always tear it apart and make it a "do-over". I suppose a manufacturer could tinker with the wall diameter/thickness/density of a graphite blank and change the overall response of the rod to mimic glass or bamboo but changing what a manufacturer has designed (fast tip) post-facto sounds "dicey"?

I'm not at all sure how to make a fast action bamboo rod - even the lightest single foot wire or twisted English guides have minimal effect on decreasing the depth to which the rod flexes. Changing the taper on bamboo (effectively increasing the diameter) should only result in a heavier weight rating for line. The only thing I can think of is lighter fly line - say 3wt on a 5/6 wt rod - effectively less weight forward of the tip. To my thinking (which is always subject to fault) this would result in a rod that wouldn't cast worth a darn because it wouldn't load properly. One other thing that might work would be changing out the butt and tip tapers 5/6 wt lower section with 2/3 wt tip section - which might give the feel of a faster tip - but kills the overall feel of the bamboo material and deep flex. Probably the best solution is to use the material suited to the situation, design of the manufacturer, and preference of the fisherman?

The action of the rod is created by the tapers and weight distributition of the blank and it's material properties. In essence this is cast in place. The rod tip can be made quicker and the action "modified" by reducing the inertia of the guide train and component location.
The use of titanium single foots on the top 2 - 4 guides will reduce parasitic losses on the tip of the rod. This works very well on slow or parabolic action rods giving a lighter quicker feel without changing the casting stroke. Reducing the number of guides and increasing the distance from the tip also support this same reduction of inertia.
The above will modify the rod damping characteristics to make a bamboo or fiberglass rod more closely resemble a graphite rod in overall response.
To make a graphite rod more closely resemble a fiberglass or bamboo the opposite can be employed. The key ingredient is finding a graphite blank with a relatively slow butt section. Several are available but the manufacturers don't rate the butt and tip action separately, only the total rod action is described. This is also, I believe, outside the scope of the CCS at this time. Once the appropriate blank is obtained additional weight in the form of guides and tip top can be located to slow the tip action producing the desired progressive overall damping action.

Mo,
Correct me if I'm wrong but the techniques your friend employs are primarily wet and or streamer actions imparted to the fly.
These can also be employed with fast action rods thru a combination of rod tip movement and stripping action with the line hand. Perhaps not as easy as allowing the blank to impart the motion, but very effective.
My preference is to build faster, lighter rods and force myself to modify my stroke to achieve the desired results. If I must open my loop and reduce my wrist rotation velocity for a softer presentation this is just an excuse for more practice, on my part. The problems comes if the wind blows and you want to close the loop or if you want to reach a tight, long lie and the rod isn't capable. In this situation the fast rod will make the presentation easier with adequate practice.
As fishermen, sometimes we're too fast , sometimes too slow. Give me the fast rod and I can slow down, if I choose the slow rod there is a limit as to how fast I can go.

Gene Moore



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2009 12:32PM by Eugene Moore.

Ken,

You can easily make a fast action bamboo rod. You just need to employ a sharper taper. To make a slow action graphite rod, you design and build a shallower taper. That's all there is to it. In fact the fastest action fly rod I have ever touched is a glass rod - a Shakespeare President.

Adding or reducing weight won't change the action - it will change the speed.

.............

Eugene

It is not outside the scope of the CCS. Read the "Big Picture." You can take the CCS measurements on any portion of any blank or rod.

I certainly agree with you that a fast action rod allows the fisherman to do more. A fast action rod can do anything a slow action rod can, but not necessarily vice versa.

...............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:

. A fast action rod can do anything a slow action rod can, but not necessarily vice versa.

Maybe I am missing something here, but all other factors being equal, doesn't a slow action increase the likelihood of landing a large fish on light line?

Why? If you play the fish correctly and have your drag set properly, it really shouldn't matter to any great extent. As long as the drag slips before the line or tippet breaks, the fish can only pull so hard before line pays out.

.........

Interesting ... I'm going to set up the planing form and see what kind of a fast taper I can achieve

I think it is a huge misconception that fiberglass and bamboo rods have the ability to throw a wide loop as compared to a graphite fly rod.

First off, what are the benefits of a wide loop? IMHO there are none. The loop is very inefficient to the delivery point particular in the wind. The front of the loop has more surface area thus increasing wind resistance and decreasing energy. I hear other guys state that the presentation is softer also. I find no evidence of that what-so-ever in the past 30 years.

Second, the width of the lop is determined by the path of travel of the tip of the rod, not by what the rod material is composed of. However, I can throw a MONDO wide loop just as easy as a tight loop based on my rod stroke. Sure, "slower action" fly rods do not throw tight dart like loops like their fast action brothers. But that is a result of the action, not the material.

So...what do fiberglass and bamboo rods offer in "performance" more than graphite siblings? I know about the nostalgia thing, so I'm all ears...

Anyway, I'm an open-minded guy, so let me have it you ole' dinosaurs that still argue for bamboo and fiberglass!!! (I said this with a humorous intent...)

Paul

The thing to keep in mind, is that the gentlemen from years past who were considered great bamboo rod makers were working with bamboo (instead of ash, greenheart or cedar) because it offered the best stiffness to weight ratio in a rod building material at that time. If carbon fiber had been available then, that's what they would have been working with.

......................

I understand Tom, good point. I really do admire and respect anyone that can build a rod from bamboo. They are at a level of craftsmanship that I will never obtain, so therefore my utmost respect they have.

Tom, your initial post in response is exactly what I've been thinking. From an engineering point of view, it does seem to me that I can always take a higher modulus material and design it so that it mimics the lower modulus material etc.

Just a note on my buddy, the trout guy. He is exclusively a spin rod guy so with fiberglass, were talking spin rods. Just to clarify. There's another guy I know who's probably the 2nd best trout rod guy. He's been after me to put heavier guides on my rods so that it will 'slow' down the response. I am very resistant to that because I think he is simply used to his very limber custom Loomis GLX which he feels is the best rod he has ever had. My thoughts are that he is used to a certain level of performance and thus, fish a certain way to

Thanks for all the comments. Interesting reading.

Mo

Paul, please note that I said specifically, that it is POSSIBLE to create a wide loop with a graphite rod, just not as easy as with a fiberglass rod.

The fact is it takes less imparted energy to create a loop with a fiberglass rod precisely because it flexes (i.e., loads) with less effort. Therefore it is much easier to create a wide loop (a loop with less energy).

Creating a wide loop with a fast action rod is more difficult, because you can only slow down the cast so much before you have not imparted enough energy into the rod to adequately load it. So, the loop can only be so big. It is harder to do, takes more concentration, and therefore is more work.

Conversely, it is also a lot of work to attempt a very fast loop with a fiberglass rods, simply because you can only put so much power to it until it becomes over-loaded, and you end up with either bad tailing loops, or your line just falls in a puddle.

And as to Tom's point about the material being heavier, the rod I just build only weighs 3.5 ounces all inclusive, so I wouldn't call it heavy. I think that the material used DOES have an affect on action. All things being equal, if you used the same mandrel, wall thickness, and taper specs to make 2 rods, one out of fiberglas, one out of graphite, the graphite rod would be faster, and the fiberglass would be slower. The fact is that there are no manufacturers making slow graphite rod blanks, so if you want a slow rod you must use fiberglass.

And to clarify, I'm not a sold-out glass freak. I personally own and use 5 fly rods, only one of which is fiberglass. Do I love fishing with it? Yes. More importantly, I see and appreciate the differences, particularly with an eye toward what my clients like and want. It is my mission to have an understanding of the differences, the strengths and weaknesses of all types of rods so I can provide what my clients want.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2009 09:16PM by Walt Natzke.

Walt,

If the respective tapers are the same then the actions will be the same. I think you're confusing action with speed. Where a rod initially flexes is not at all dependent on the material it's made from. How quickly it reacts and recovers, of course, has a great deal to do with both taper and the material involved.

And, a graphite rod will load just as easily as a glass or bamboo rod provided you have the proper line on it for the distance you're fishing. Any time you have trouble easily loading a rod, you're not using the right line for the distance you're fishing or the input you're providing.

..............

Walt....

So why would you want to cast a wide loop? A wide loop is very innefficient in all ways.

Also, I could not disagree more with your statement: "Creating a wide loop with a fast action rod is more difficult, because you can only slow down the cast so much before you have not imparted enough energy into the rod to adequately load it. So, the loop can only be so big. It is harder to do, takes more concentration, and therefore is more work." That's ok to agree to disagree...

I can slow down my rod stroke and stop the rod slower, thus resulting in a loop as wide as I want to make it.

You said:
"Conversely, it is also a lot of work to attempt a very fast loop with a fiberglass rods, simply because you can only put so much power to it until it becomes over-loaded, and you end up with either bad tailing loops, or your line just falls in a puddle."

I don't understand your statement "fast loop". Do you mean tight loop or are you refering to line speed? But yet another reason why graphite is a superior material.

You say you love to fish your fiberglass rod. I realize that and respect that, but what relavance is it? People love fishing their Ugly Sticks. I understand as I have sold hundreds of rods in the retail end of the business.

I didn't intend to raise anybodys hackles so please understand that. I would just like to hear if anybody here can give me "performance" advantages of fiberglass and bamboo....


Paul

PS Sorry Mo, I didn't mean to steal your thread. The above post will be the last on this thread. I will listen for any "perromance" advantges.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2009 01:05AM by Paul Rotkis.

Most of my fishing buddies use graphite rods and almost all of them cast with a very wide loop (they drop back too far on their backcasts and the rod tip travels in an arc). A wide loop is easy to make with any rod.

As far as overloading a rod, power is not dictated by material any more than action is. You can build glass rods that have just as much power as graphite rods. In fact, the most powerful rods in the world are glass rods - IGFA trolling rods. A fast action rod, whether bamboo, glass or graphite, allows you to keep more power in reserve and will generally cast a wider range of lines at a wider range of distances than rods with slower actions will. This is why very fast action rods are my preference, although there will always be those that don't like them.


................

Most of this discussion pertains to fly rods. There is little advantage outside of being slightly more environmentally friendly to using bamboo over either fiberglass or graphite. Most anglers use their spinning and casting rods as a lever to throw a weight as far as possible. Fly fishers throw around the line, and how the rod loads is a more important consideration. Tom is certainly correct in saying that you can control loop size with any material. It is also true that high MOE material fly rods react faster and consequently require more precision than rods that can be built with lower MOE material. At the end of a long day, I find it unpleasant trying to keep up with a graphite rod, and more taxing to do it all day. I prefer a semi-parabolic action that works with me from morning to night. I could build a faster rod and have the same experience that I would get with graphite, but I don't have to. And that is the biggest advantage to bamboo over anything else. You can get a rod that fits you, and not what some marketing drone decided you should like. Yes fiberglass is slower acting than graphite, but my old Fenwick is still what the designer thought was the beast all round action at that time, and not what I would have designed, given the chance.

This forum is about building rods, custom rods for the most part. One-off bamboo rods are really the ultimate in custom rod building, with everything subject to customer desire.

Larry

Larry,

I'd make one suggestion to you - move up a line size on your graphite rod and try it that way. Graphite rods should be easy and pleasant to cast, all day long. I fish with a lot of guys and when somebody talks about their graphite rod requiring better timing or making them tired I find that they usually don't have the correct line on the rod for what they're doing. A graphite rod should be far less tiring than either bamboo or glass over the course of a long day on the water. If it's not, something's wrong with the set up.

................