I just recieved a catalogue from a distributor who deals in FlexCoat. I came to the Flexcoat section and had a read through it. There is a set of mixing/application instructions at the back. Heres what it says " We do not use colour preserver on any of the wraps that hold the guides down because it prevents the finish from soaking into the thread, which is essential for a strong bond"

Now I know the CP issue has been dicussed many tmes on this board. It is my personal opinion that it is just a cosmetic option. I have used CP for many yrs even on the heavy King Salmon rods and never had a problem

If a manufacturer is actually printing this as part of finishing instructions how are these rodbuilding myths ever going to be put to bed? It seems very strange to me as right after the CP note they give instructions on how to thin with acetone. Now this is something that I would never do with any two part.

Scott,
I have no evidence to support either side of this statement.
However, if I have my druthers, I would rather NOT use color preserver. To me, it does seem that the finsh penegrates the thread better without color preserver.

Having said that, I have never had any issues with finish and its use with color preserver.

Take care
Roger

I have tried both, and in my limited experience thread with CP is easier to remove from the blank than thread without CP. I had to replace a few guides that had been broken. The thread with out CP were a PITA to remove where on the rod that I had used CP I was able to pull the thread of with the rod in the wrapper and spin it in reverse. While this is by no means a scientific test, this is my experience. I am in no way implying that the wraps are any less secure just that the wraps are easier to remove once the epoxy is heated.

Tony

I would note that they did not say it would increase or decrease how well guides stay attached to a rod. They simply stated two facts that are correct
Fact one;
CP prevents finish from soaking into the thread (CP is a sealer and thus their statement is correct.)
Fact two;
Finish soaking into thread is essential for a strong bond. (It is a fact in most cases that anything that “soaks into” what it is finishing has a stronger bond then one that is just coated onto the material.)

Now is that added strength due to the soaking in of finish needed for secure wraps? Maybe, maybe not.
But that is not what they stating,

Which would you rather drive on: A bridge built by setting a concrete slab on a pile of loose reinforcing steel, or one with the steel embedded in the concrete? Wraps where the epoxy soaks into the thread are going to be stronger than ones sealed with color preserver. It's not a myth, just engineering fact. Whether you need that strength is a different concern. If you use A or better thread and pile on the epoxy, then you don't have to worry about the customer dropping the rod off a bluff onto gravel and damaging the integrity of the wrap. On the other hand, if you are going for minimal profile using 6/0 or finer thread, then you might want the additional security of completely locking 100% of the thread to the rod. The manufacturer is going to go the conservative route and recommend against CP. Doing less makes any failure your fault, not theirs. Standard CYA verbiage.

Larry

Okay, new guy warning here......but isn't CP "required" unless you are using NCP (or black) thread? Heck it has been a long time since I did a rod but back then white thread would become clear thread without CP. Is that no longer the case with epoxy? What about the embrodiery threads and silicone....or is that no longer a problem?



Russ

Russell,

Yes, and no.
No! CP is not required.
Yes! you will have to put up with threads getting darker and or
translucient if you don't use it when wrapping regular nylon and silicone is always an issue to be concidered.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Gentlemen,
As previously stated by the manufacturer: "We do not use colour preserver on any of the wraps that hold the guides down because it prevents the finish from soaking into the thread, which is essential for a strong bond"

A strong bond for what -- Guide to blank - thread to guide - thread to blank?

They may be implying the entire thread/guide assembly needs to be bonded to the blank - but thread finish is not an adhesive per se . . . and, CP will definitely prevent the full penetration of the finish to the blank. However, the thread should be doing all the work anyway, based on the amount of tension applied and it doesn't need to be "bonded" to anyrhing to do this. The finish just protects the thread - the CP protects the color. Some epoxy that penetrates wraps where no CP is used may aid in the prevention of side-to-side movement if the thread wraps become a bit loose but using proper wrapping techniques should prevent that.

The guides should be properly affixed to the blank well before any finish is applied to the wraps. Once the epoxy of choice is applied as a continuous film around the thread, it cures and forms an encapsulating sleeve around the thread wraps, thus protecting them from the elements and abrasion but in my opinion should not be used to improve the "bond" of the thread/guide to the blank. Only the thread tension will improve the "bond" to the blank.

BUT, probably the real underlying reason the manuf. does not use CP is that it eliminates additional construction steps towards the completition of their rods. Time is MONEY!

Charlie

Tightlinerods@aol.com

THEre was an article in RM about using CP on guide wraps several years ago, and the strength, myth, etc's. I think to each their own - some people use CP on guides, havent' experianced any issues after teh rod has been fished - so you cna't argue that it doesn't work. On the other hand, I personally have issues with CP on guide wraps after the rod is fished, so I will never use it - you can't argue with me that it does work. lol.

Like anything else you do in life, try it for yourself and see how it works, for you. The MAnu is printing these instructions probably to prevent peopl elike myself from having a negative experiance and poo-pooing their CP. THe stuff about the Acetone works, tehre are thousands of people who do it for decades. I don't, but someone who does it and gets good results, you can't argue with that.

I wrap a lot of salt water sticks and personally fish them up to 100# class I always do a Madeira/"A" under wrap and hit it with one coat of 25% diluted CP I then over wrap with B.C, or sometimes D nylon and then give a full strength coat of CP. I make a particular effort to get the CP to soak in/flood in around the guide feet.

Then I like to let it all dry out for as much as a week as we have high humidity here then I finish with a coat or two of any one of the more popular lite build epoxies.

I have never had a guide come loose under any fishing conditions, nor have they come loose when a guy knocked one so hard against the gunnel he snapped of the ring on a triple braced stainless guide off the braces.

So in answer to your question I think it's a myth ( Bravo Sierra) :)

IMO, it is user preference ONLY. I do believe that wraps (as a total entity) are stronger without CP. However, I also believe that the additional strength is totally unneeded.

Does thread hold the guide in position? YES.
Does epoxy protect the thread? YES.

However, there is no doubt in my mind of an added "adhesive" result to guides with epoxy fully saturating the guide foot and thread wrap. But this is like asking a question of whether the car going 95 was speeding or the one going 105 ... both on a freeway with a limit of 70.

Due to the sometimes peculiar nature of CP, the added steps involved AND the expense (CP and brushes) ... I only apply when necessary to preserve bright colors.

Tests have been performed and there is a difference in strength of about 11% between CP and non-CP wraps. However, wraps made with CP are not inherently weak and you will deform the guide before you will experience a thread failure.

.....................

Like Billy and Jim said, it's a matter of preference. I use CP 90% of the time but I don't do saltwater (although I do musky, salmon downrigger, diver rods). I would like to say that I repair factory rods on a DAILY basis and have found no more difficulty in removing guides on them and none of them involve the use of CP. One interesting thing is that the underside of the removed thread shows spool color and NO sign that the finish ever penetrated to the blank.!! I'm wondering if, on a properly wrapped guide if anything, CP or finish penetrates all the way through or just seals the exposed surfaces.

One more point. Scott said "If a manufacturer is actually printing this as part of finishing instructions how are these rodbuilding myths ever going to be put to bed? It seems very strange to me as right after the CP note they give instructions on how to thin with acetone. Now this is something that I would never do with any two part."

Flexcoat is NOT the manufacturer of the finish, they package it. so their statement is as to how they do it. I know they and some others thin with acetone but I can't imagine any epoxy formulator ever suggesting that ( I don't calim to know but I would think that any change to a formula could be detrimental).

Rod manufacturer's don't use CP because it elimates steps/time/and a component which equals MONEY!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!