There's been some discussion recently as to whether certain rings would wear with braided line. Tom, I think you are currently testing braided line with a windshield wiper motor pulling braided through a guide if I remember correctly.

Anyway, Tackletour just did a review on the E21 Carrot Stix and noted that their TiCh coated tip wore through with braided after a few days on the water.

Anyways, would love comments on this as to whether this is an aberration or has anyone else seen this? I've not tested TiCh coating durability in real life so would love more comments from this community.

Thanks,
Mo

The question here is about the quality of the ceramic and, or the coatings. I have just recently done a bit of research into ceramics to take a look at their properties for heat dissipation,shock strength and hardness. Top of the list for hardness is Silicone carbide. just a hairs breadth behind are Zirconia and silicone nitride, with aluminium oxide just a bit lower. For heat dissipation its silicone carbide again, with silicone nitride and zirconia about the same again just trailing slightly, and aluminium oxide at the bottom of the list. For strength however, zirconia and silicone nitride are about equal, then aluminium oxide with silicone carbide being the weekest-but none of this means anything unless you test materials of equal quality grade. testing a top grade alumium oxide against a low grade silicone carbide will yield results where the aluminium oxide is superior in all catagories, leading you to believe according to the results that aluminium oxide is a better material than silicone carbide.
Eventually, even air alone would wear these materials, but it would take millions of years, so of coarse superline braids will do the same, eventually-but for practicle fishing purposes its unlikely that these braids would have any noticable effect on any of the comon ceramics used in guides. If braid is wearing through guides, its likely that there is some other very hard cutting abraisive on the braid, or the ceramic in question is of a very very low grade.
Interestingly enough, thin CVD (chemical vapour deposition) coatings should in theory be superior to the solid ceramics because of the very pure deposition and consistant crystaline structure of the ceramics in the coating. Titanium Nitride is supposed to be the smoothest of all these very hard ceramics with the best heat disipation properties.
I think it is much more important to us fisherman that the ceramic does not damage the braid, either through friction or from lack of heat dissipation.
So once again, quality of materials, finish, design and construction, become the important factors in providing the best performance.

The guides Mo was talking about were the non ceramic, stainless ringed, TiCh coated guides like those that have been in the Berkeley and Fenwick rods for quite a while now. The Ti coating does the same job the hard crome coating originally did, to give a 3 times harder wear surface to the softer stainless ring.

What is cutting the guides is the silt,sand and other roughage that get inbedded in the Braid while fishing. The braid is the carrier

At the top of this page is the Vickers Hardness ratting for ring material: [rodcomponents.koolhost.com]

Bill - willierods.com

I've been unable to cut or groove the standard Minima ring even after weeks of moving loaded braid across it. However, take note of what Barry mentioned above - this is clean line, devoid of minute particles of sand, grit, silica, etc. As I said at the outset, what I'm doing does not necessarily approximate what actually takes place under actual fishing conditions.

....................

It was noted in the test that the coating process has been changed to include several coats. But wearing the coating off (they included a picture of what looked like a bare tip top) in a few days indicates to me that the coating performs little if any function in this case. I will stick with ceramic guides!

I should mention the rings I tested were not coated with anything.

...........

I was thinking about using a ceramic tip with some Minima guides on a future project. However, I seem to recall that someone (probably Rich Forhan) did some testing and documented the actual load on each guide on one of his setups. Where the heck did I read that??? Anyway, the results were interesting if I recall.

Chuck

Hi Mo,

It wouldn't surprise me. TiN coatings are only as good as the substrate it is depositioned on. A TiN coating increases the hardness about 25% if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I've seen the data on it. At 400VH for a 304SS ring plus 25% for a TiN coating you still have three times the hardness with a TiN/NanoLite ring or SiC.

SS is very soft compared to ceramics and tips take the brunt of the friction. If you add silt sand or grime to the line it can increase the abrasion tremendously.

Our NanoLite with a TiN deposition is equivalent to SiC in hardness but stronger and slicker and braid proof for practical applications like most ceramics.

Joe Meehan, American Tackle

Tom, I thought all Minima guides are TiN or TiCh coated?

Mo

Posted a couple of photos [www.rodbuilding.org] and [www.rodbuilding.org]

These are the original tips and have been thoroughly abused. Saltwater flats and marshes. Tons of silt, sand and debris. Zirc ring is just fine but the PVD wears off

Gold PVD coating wears off at ~50,000 casts
TiCh PVD wears off at ~20,000 casts

Riley Rods-Hard Core Grips to Go!-----Carbon Fiber - Composite Grip Store-----Capt Mike's Blog-----No Excuses Fishing Charters

Mo,

No. The ones I've been using have rings that are simply hard chrome plated.

I had an interesting discussion with Vic Cutter at Pacific Bay yesterday. What you see these days as "Minima" guides actually began life at Berkley way back about 15 years or so ago. Their R&D work led them to the conclusion that mono was actually tougher on guide rings than braid. In testing these guides they found that braid was not a problem for the guide rings. Keep in mind, Berkley sells a ton of braid - they did not want to put guides on their rods that would not hold up to their own line.

There is always an oddball situation. I've seen Ceramic guides that had grooved for seemingly no reason. You find a hard chrome Minima ring that has grooved. Is this an indication that they all do or did a bad guide slip out? According to Vic, none of the companies that they are supplying the Minima type guides to are having problems with the rings grooving. If they are, they sure aren't sending them back for replacement.

I've only used 2 sets thus far and have only about 1 season on them. I can't say much from my personal experience with them other than that I like them for the tremendous reduction in weight and clean lines. As far as their wearability I can't personally say. All I have to go on is what the guys who have been working with them for over a decade have to say.

.....................

Thanks Tom. Yes, I've had similar conversations too. It's just that TT's post is such a public posting and over such a short usage that I was rather taken aback. As to sending back for replacement, I'm not sure if most avg consumers even check their guides that closely or know that they are under warranty. I too have examined a good number of the various Minima guides and do think they are a good design and if I know the durability is there, would use them too.

By the way, my understanding is that the TiN and TiCH Pacbay guides that are plated like the ones reviewd on TT are first chrome plated, AND then plated with TiN and TiCH.

Thanks again Tom.

Mo

Mo,
Lots of folks have used such guides with braided line for years of use with no issues.

However, as is the case with anything. If a fisherman is using braided line in muddy conditions, such that the line gets loaded with abrasive particles, most guides will get hurt from the constant abrasion of the abrasive particles in the line.

Good luck
Roger

MO,

They may be, but the Minima 4 in the silver frame and hard chrome ring have no other plating - just the hard chrome over the stainless ring.

............

Thanks!

Mo

Does TiCh over austenetic 304 require a copper ion precoat prior to application of the TiCh? This can be a very complicated process -

Only when done during a full moon...