Richard;
I am going to disagree with you here. While this test may not have been 100 % accurate down to the fraction of a millimeter because of some variance in blanks. The closeness of the blanks allowed for those testing to see sufficient distance differences to make some accurate determinations .
Before you can boldly declare what is or is “not a true test in any sense of the word” for the rest of the world. You should take the time to find out what the perimeters of that test are.

In this case the test or challenge as it actually was, had few parameters required to determine the results
Parameter
1. It would take place at the I.C.R.B.E
2. The blanks were eight ft.
3. Set up of builders choice (all on top or spiral)
4. guides sizes of builders choice

I agree with you that if I wanted exacting to the millionth of an inch measurement, then what you declared.
“What they did was not a true "test" in any sense of the word.”
May have some merit to it. But then if things had to be exactly the “SAME” for a test or challenge to be “true’
We would have to use the SAME guides, prepped exactly the same by same person. Same thread measuring the lengths of thread used on each guide and duplicate it, same with epoxy, handles, arbors, and so on.

In fact we would have to do that in foot ball as well for it to be a “true test” to see who wins.
All players would have to have the same workout; weigh the same, have same length arms, legs, body, fingers and abilities. Using the same plays, wearing suites designed and weighing exactly the same.
That is if it was to be a “true test”.

Same with NASCAR; all one model, one brand of car, of exactly the same spec’s. All decals would have to be sized and weigh the same. Should have same air in tires also and required to change them at the same lap. At least for it to be “a true "test" in any sense of the word.”

Let us stop and back up a second here. I do not think we are talking about results based on blind faith. We are or should be talking about results based on at least semi scientific testing procedures, which did not take place. If you are asking me to have faith that a rod wrapped in spiral fashion will outcast a rod wrapped with the guides on top I am afraid I am going to have to ask for proof. I will not accept it based on "faith."

Taking two blanks which are not the same--- one is a different modulus than the other, and having a supposed casting "test" and then stating that one blistered the other due to one having a spiral wrap and one not, is pretty far fetched. It did not prove anything by any reasonable measure. You had too many variables not the least of which was that you used two different blanks.

Rather than introduce results which are suspect at best, why not set up a real test where you use the same blank, set up two different ways and then cast fifty times each by a dozen different fishermen and record the results. That is still marginal at best as far as being truly scientific, but is a far cry more scientific than what you outlined above.

Richard, back in your second response on this post, as well as once in the 27x novel, I see that Tom editied your post for you. Does this happen often?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2009 09:18PM by Tim Collins.

Richard;
I am not asking you to believe anything
I posted facts based simply on the results of the competition based on the guide lines set forth for that competition. In which one rod with the guides laid out as specified blistered the other.

If you need more proof for your beliefs? You may want to set up your own “real” tests based on your standards of what is required to answer your requirements of proof, and allow those whose requirements are sufficient to answer the questions that the competition answered, decide what those should be.

But if you are not willing to put forth that effort you may want to attend the Expo this year were the same test subject to more stringent parameters will again take place.

If somebody gets out of hand, I will edit their posts. I am preparing to edit/delete a couple in this very thread.

..............

Steve

There is a difference between a test and a competition. If you take two different rods and set them up with different guide combinations and find one casts further than the other, you do not have a test. You have a competition. To say that the casting difference was due to the guide set up on one would be incorrect as it is only one of several variables. I have no interest in setting up such a competition. I am certain that a good spiral wrapped rod will not outcast a good guides on top rod. There is no logical reason that such a thing would be possible. If you do set up such a thing and control the variables so that the guide set up is the only variable then I would most definitely be interested in the results.

Tim

Tom owns this forum and if he feels I was out line then he has the power and right to edit my posts or that of anyone else including you. I do not believe I was outside the rules and I have not insulted or flamed anyone in any of the posts I have made. If I am being too argumentative I apologize but I think there are a few here who only want to argue for the sake of argument.

Richard Kuhne Wrote:
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" but I think there are a few here who only want to argue for the sake of argument".



I'll agree with your statement there.

Steve, I've been thinking about your response and believe the spiral should out cast an all guides on top rod - but I'm assuming that's because an all guides on top rod would most likely have all df guides spaced a bit closer to prevent line slap whereas a spiral would employ sf guides and possibly wind up with one less guide overall thus improving the rod's performance due to lighter weight - or am I all wet and it's for some other reason? Thanks.

Tim - my on top builds use only SFs - why would you need DFs for an on top?

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There won't be any measurable difference in casting distance between a conventional guides on top rod and spiral rod if all else is equal. In the scenario you described originally the difference was basically due to the differences between the two blanks.

If a test isn't apples to apples it's just fruit salad and not an accurate test IMHO.

Wanting to confirm my own conclusions I wrapped a 2pc rod using the Simple Spiral method with all of the
180 guides on the tip section. I can cast the same rod/reel/line/wt. with all guides on top or spiral config.
and concluded that no discernible difference showed between the two. This also shows no difference in
spine orientation too.

Apples to Apples.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Tim;
Your observation is valid and worth considering in many cases,
But not applicable to this particular situation. For a couple of reasons

1. Both rods were using single ft Micro guides with the exception, that the spiral had one 6mm double ft stripper and a 5mm single ft before going to Micro’s. The all on top used the same size single ft Micro’s through out.
2. The spiral may have actually had more guides due the way it was set up compared to the other, and its guide train most likely weighed more.

Raymond, Richard;
You may both be right in that the only reason for the difference in casting distance was the bank, then again maybe not.
But in the context of this post the only reason the event was brought up was in consideration that the change in line angle location may have had something to do with casting restrictions and again maybe not.

You may not believe it but I am totally unattached to the results of which casts further, simply because that is not why I build spirals.

In the case at the show, my personal thoughts are that the 6mm stripper guide and its location had more to do with the casting results then any thing else.
But that is subject for another post and would only further steer people away from the important info Alex was providing

Alex Dziengielewski Wrote:
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> Tim - my on top builds use only SFs - why would
> you need DFs for an on top?


Hi Alex, I just thought all top only rods (I'm probably basing this on seeing factiory rods) had df guides. What guide size and model would you put on a 7' Bass rod? Would guide spacings on the upper section be closer together or about the same if the same section had guides underneath as a spiral? Thanks.

Tim;
These are the size I use on all bass rods regardless of length, application, or line type.
From light action rods to flipping sticks with 60 lb braid.

[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]

The only draw back to using these in bass rods; would be if some one wanted to pass large leader knots through them.

I'm gonna show up with a 4' Snoopy rod, fire off a cast and cut the line and hit the top of teh back wall of the showroom. Just so I can prove that a no guides, no reel rod casts the furthest.

THe whole using teh exact same blank thing is a bit ridiculous since it's impossible to do a real life test. Even the 2-piece rod isn't a good example, because you should be setting up guides with different spacing & possibly sizes for a spiral or trad-al set up. The point that gets lost in all of this is that a spiral wrapped rod with teeny guides casts just as well as a trad-al rod with normal guides.

I've went through a similar test in 2004, and pretty much told people before I posted teh results of the test that if they were not willing to set up their own test or believe teh results, that they can keep their mouths shut about the results. Steve is aware of teh variance in his last casting exhibition, and is taking steps to eliminate those variances as much as humanly possible. Unless you are willing to do the same, there isn't anything worthwhile that you can say.

Tim: Do a board search and place "M&M Volume" in the search window and change dates to all. Please take a close look at the threads referenced and you will gain some information describing the subject matter involved in this thread. Build a test rod for bass fishing - technque of your choice using the micro guides and compare to production rod performance. The advantages will be quite evident.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2009 12:34PM by Bill Stevens.

Tim -

My personal preference for on top builds is SF6,4,3s. I have started using SF6,4s to tip on rods being used with 20# or higher mono.

How did I come to decide on this build? Trial and error and looking at the results I liked for myself. Luckily my clients agree as well, so they buy the rods.

Are there more options? Yeah. Are DF guides more durable? Probably. It's been my experience that if a guy is going to tear up a rod, a foot on the front of a guide isn't going to make much difference.

Spacing - I static test and space accordingly regardless of spiral or on top - so really depends on the blank. I just want a guide where a guide needs to be. For spirals I space on top, then turn them under to be wrapped.

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Hey Billy -

I bet the 3.5' Barbie rod I have will outcast that Snoopy rod...

I hearby challenge you!

Oh yeah - It's on now!

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I happento know that there is a Barbie rod in your household, and it actually gets used, lmao!! I have the pics to prove it too. Gotta love a rod with 1 guide and a top, and the fact it has an ergonomically correct trigger grip seals the deal.

I have a solution for you gentlemen on this subject. it is as close to scientficly possible as you can get to conclusive data on this subject. here is my plan, you tell me what you think.

I am new to rod building, and I have no opion on weather spiral wraps versus all on top wraps are better. so here is my idea. I will order in two blanks, same manufacture, same action and power. will buy identical reel seats, premade handles and identical gudies. one I will make traditional with all gudies on top, the other, i will make as a simple spiral wrap. then I will cast each rod 20 times, useing the same reel and wieght. (am thnking 1/2 oz, but you got a better idea, let me know) then I will have my father cast each rod 20 times as well as both of my brothers. we will take measurements and see if one way consistantly out performs the other... let me know your thoughts... and give me time to do this. I am not goign to use high dollar blanks for this test folks, but both blanks are going to be closely matched.